Do they have a heart beat? If not they are dead, they will not awake back to life.

8:52 PM

8:54 PM

It may have been that Stephanie agreed to the deal, but Steve was not consulted. Or vice versa.

Nope, it doesn't count in this thread..

Please enlighten.

People with artificial hearts don't have heartbeats. So...?

Also wtf @ saying deal and then continuing to post here.

0 people having been revived does not imply none will.

Heart transplant patients ARE brain dead (i.e. there are NO brain waves) during the transplant. Do some googling and expand your education a bit.

Saying "souls do not experience time" makes exactly 0 sense to me. It's in the realm of square circles.

bout three minutes and fifty seconds

It's unwise for a scientist to make claims and statements (seemingly authoritatively) about a discipline that's not his/her area of expertise. Any scientist worth their salt would know and respect this.

You know, I've been accused in the past of being too condescending and I don't deny that I have, but sometimes you have to be blunt. You're terribly wrong - laughably so. Tell that to a physician or clinical psychologist and get back to me with their reactions. If that's not enough, get some EEG readings from patients during open heart surgery. The funny thing is that I'm not even a medical professional and this is common sense to me, but for you this is going to be news.

I'll preface this response by saying that this discussion of souls eventually hits an epistemological ceiling, and that there are certain assumptions that I'm making based on my beliefs, namely that both time and the universe is finite. This very topic tests even the limits of our imagination. There are some things that simply cannot be known nor understood, and will always remain in the domain of faith, belief and speculation. This we have to accept, but that's not to stop us from trying, right? Things like what happened before the big bang and what will happen after the big crunch, if there is one. Also, I'll try to use language you may be familiar with, but I'm not well-versed in the physical technicalities, so if I misuse a term please correct me or ask for clarification. It's only fair that I try to rationalize it in such a way.

I think I understand what you mean when you say it's in the realm of square circles. Our experience of time is continuous. But all change is a function of time, so when time pauses nothing changes. You're likely thinking of the soul as a relativistic object in its own space. This is probably where the confusion stems from. The soul is non-physical, you have to remember that much. I'm merely speculating here: It exists both at t=0 and at every point of time until the end of the time. How or why, I don't know. No one can possibly know. Could it have different properties as it relates to time and the universe? Sure, maybe; there's no way anybody can know with absolutely certainty anyway. That's divine knowledge, if you will. This is what I meant by "does not experience time." It's meaningless to it. It's eternal.

What's your take?

Yeah, I don't think this is right at all.

From http://healthguide.howstuffworks.com...dictionary.htm (I like these howstuffworks guys, great podcast too!)


All the heart is, is a pump, nothing more. When you replace that pump with an artificial one, everything just keeps going. Anything else we attribute to the heart (love etc.) is just poetry and really comes from the brain.

From what I remember, to be considered dead you need both brain death and cardiac arrest. Until that happens, you are not dead. Maybe what you were seeing on google Eddi is that the heart comes from someone who is brain dead...

Outside of time and space has been a subject explored quite heavily by mathematicians and scientists. Much of what man can't be physically perceived or measured has been attempted to be represented mathematically. Linear mathematics pursues infinite dimensions far beyond the three dimensional physical universe in which our bodies inhabit.

Einstein attempted to address the subject of time in his theory of relativity. Quotes attributed to Einstein regarding time include;

"space and time are forms of intuition, which can no more be divorced from consciousness than can our concepts of color, shape, or size."

"time has no independent existence apart from the order of events by which we measure it."


Einstein’s Theory of General Relativity maintains that the speed of time changes depending on the speed of the object and its distance from the centre of gravity. As speed increases, time is shortened, compressed; and slows down as if it comes to the point of "stopping".

These are just a few examples of scientific explorations of the topics "beyond space and time".

Well my non-expert knowledge comes from BBC documentary about heart-lung machine history. If they lied to me, I'll concede if more expert people say that it's not true that there is no EEG when blood is taken out and cooled down in a heart-lung machine during a heart transplant surgery.

edit: I did a bunch of googling and can't even find the original movie Their claim was that the hypothermia (maybe combined with less blood that was more oxygenated) slowed everything down to the point of not having any detectable brain activity. I'm really curious now how true that claim is.

You know - I existed both 10 years ago and exist now. Does this mean I don't experience time? Similarly there are photons that existed shortly after the big bang and will likely exist until the end of the universe if that happens. Do they not experience time?

I don't see what something being eternal has to do with "experiencing time". Sure maybe a year passed is less of a deal when you live forever, but so what?

Any abstract concept is "outside space and time". Key word here is "abstract".

You're muddling water with time in GR. That's about observers in different frames.

Well, I still can't find the bbc stuff, but this should at least settle the theoretical possibility of all the cryo-freezing stuff (including brain death etc).

http://www.wonderquest.com/FrogsPolar.htm

About what? You claimed: Well, I'm a physicist, and later said: I have no idea why "outside time and space" is in quotes, it wasn't a phrase I used.


My question was: how can you be a physicist and not know what non-local and non-temporal mean?

It means there is no evidence that they can be.

See two posts above for indirect evidence.

How do you think some of them manage to form memories of what happened during their procedures while they were "brain dead?"


Do some googling yourself: Sam Parnia. (I haven't lately, but I imagine his papers are still online.)

Please enlighten. And don't forget to also enlighten me on how souls fit in whatever you explain to me.

There is no indirect evidence. This is about a mechanical problem not a neurological one. You can freeze a worm and "thaw" it and it will live. You cannot do that with a mass the size of a human being. The hope/wish expressed as hypothesis is: well, someday we will be able to.


It's a scam. They're dead. No souls involved but the ones making all the money maintaining the freezers.

The "location" of your soul (by which I presume we mean the Eternal person) does not depend on the state of your body. It isn't like your soul is trapped in there. Eternity is non-local and non-temporal and you are actually always "located" in it. Your body is part of the Grand Illusion of Time/Space. Your sojourn in Time includes being attached to that body, so much so that most (but not all) people accept the illusion as the Reality. (See: the Matrix for an analogous situation.) The soul detaches from the body at the will of God - regardless of the state of the flesh.

Is my question really that unclear? What does non-local and non-temporal mean?

Thanks for copy-pasting btw, very enlightening.

I'm pretty confused what exactly you'd consider "indirect evidence".