How Do We Value Truth? - Page 5 - Religion, God, and Theology

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How Do We Value Truth?

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03-27-2020 , 07:52 PM

#101

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Exactly. Moral claims or ideas have nothing to do with truth or facts.

Inherent in this claim is an assumption about moral claims that are not broadly accepted.

Quote

03-27-2020 , 08:01 PM

#102

RoundGuy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish

Ok, so a fact and true are the same, in your usage.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish

I didn't say the jellybeans had been counted or the number was known, I was describing what was true, as the narrator of the scenario.

You shouldn't do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish

You say 'duh', but if you use fact to mean the same as truth, then the number of jellybeans was already a fact. It didn't become a fact after they had been counted (which was what I described).

It only became a fact after they were counted. Prior to that, it was a belief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish

But this describes when someone thinks something is the case and it is true - so of course it would be true, but more specifically it would be knowledge.

No, it would be a belief.

Quote

03-27-2020 , 08:08 PM

#103

RoundGuy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

You admitted this yourself. Unless in your reality the things you've typed previously don't exist.

Please quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

If reality is in your head, and you imagine that other people agree with you, then you have access to your own set of truth and facts, which puts you on a pathway that's completely different from the one you started on.

The reality in my head has nothing to do with truth and facts. Are you talking to the right person?

Quote

03-27-2020 , 08:10 PM

#104

RoundGuy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

Inherent in this claim is an assumption about moral claims that are not broadly accepted.

Broadly accepted by whom? Aaron W.?

Quote

03-27-2020 , 08:15 PM

#105

RoundGuy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

This isn't about knowing truth. This is about the existence of truth. There is a truth about the coin even if we don't know it.

Truth isn't truth until it can be proven -- by someone, and others, seeing the coin.

I have a 10-inch dick. Is it true?

Quote

03-27-2020 , 10:43 PM

#106

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Please quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

No. If they are "true facts", they can be proven. Until then, they are a belief, or if you prefer, a hypothesis.

This could slightly veer from what I've said before, maybe, so you know, to clarify.

Quote

03-27-2020 , 10:44 PM

#107

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Truth isn't truth until it can be proven -- by someone, and others, seeing the coin.

So there's no fact that the coin is either heads or tails as it lies there under the table? Doesn't this imply that fact and truth are dependent upon human experience?

Quote

03-27-2020 , 10:45 PM

#108

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Truth isn't truth until it can be proven -- by someone, and others, seeing the coin.

What is the role of logic in truth? Is it not true to claim that the coin is either heads or tails?

Quote

03-27-2020 , 11:07 PM

#109

RoundGuy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

I don't think you understand what a quote is. Please quote where I've been inconsistent.

Quote

03-27-2020 , 11:09 PM

#110

RoundGuy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

What is the role of logic in truth? Is it not true to claim that the coin is either heads or tails?

You can claim whatever you want. The truth is under the table.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 12:10 AM

#111

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

I don't think you understand what a quote is. Please quote where I've been inconsistent.

This is the second time I've done this for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Truth is a fact that can be proven -- by evidence, by repeatable observation, by others other than you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Truth: that which is in accordance with fact or reality.

You started in one place, then moved to this reality-dependent conception, but now (based on the coin flip example) you're moved to an experiential realm of truth (truth cannot exist unless humans have had the experience of verifying it).

And round and round you go... kind of like how one might think a round guy would behave.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 12:10 AM

#112

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

You can claim whatever you want. The truth is under the table.

So it is true that the coin is either heads or tails? Or is it false that the coin is either heads or tails?

Quote

03-28-2020 , 12:34 AM

#113

RoundGuy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

You have not shown any inconsistency in my posts.

But you are a great bumper on a pinball table.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 12:35 AM

#114

RoundGuy

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron W.

So it is true that the coin is either heads or tails? Or is it false that the coin is either heads or tails?

Did it land on its edge?

Quote

03-28-2020 , 12:48 AM

#115

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

You have not shown any inconsistency in my posts.

Of course not. They're just different words that mean different things.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 12:48 AM

#116

Aaron W.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Did it land on its edge?

If it did, then it defied physics. It can also be determined to not be on its edge while not knowing which side is facing up.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 12:50 AM

#117

Aaron W.

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We can try this one: Is truth a human-dependent property? That is, does truth require humans or can truth exist outside of humans?

Quote

03-28-2020 , 06:50 AM

#118

neeeel

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,731

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoundGuy

Why would you need to "believe" in a truth? A truth is what it is. Do you have "faith" in a truth? Why?

Thats not what I asked. I asked

Quote:

Originally Posted by neeeel

So beliefs are never true?

in response to you saying

Quote:

It's either a belief, or it's true. It can't be both.

Is it possible for a belief that I hold, to be true?

Yes, a truth is true whether I believe it or not, but thats not what I am asking.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 11:58 AM

#119

craig1120

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This thread illustrates how much we rely on intuition.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 03:29 PM

#120

UsernameTaken

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Quote:

Originally Posted by craig1120

This thread illustrates how much we rely on intuition.

And?

Quote

03-28-2020 , 03:36 PM

#121

craig1120

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Quote:

Originally Posted by UsernameTaken

And?

This thread illustrates the primacy of intuition.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 03:40 PM

#122

UsernameTaken

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Quote:

Originally Posted by craig1120

This thread illustrates the primacy of intuition.

So what?

Quote

03-28-2020 , 04:00 PM

#123

craig1120

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Quote:

Originally Posted by UsernameTaken

So what?

When it comes to morality, the intellect is a confirmation bias machine. Your rules and fallacies are tools to confirm bias. Progress in morality only comes via bottom up (intuition). Top down does not lead and only serves to organize, articulate, etc what is already known.

Quote

03-28-2020 , 06:15 PM

#124

UsernameTaken

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Quote:

Originally Posted by craig1120

I finally understood what you mean, thank you.

My own journey to the understanding and progress to morality has already ended. It ended when I realized that Jesus is actually the Devil, the most evil being in the universe. When I rejected Jesus, I understood that morality is like a golden vessel filled with sweetness. And this sweetness is an eternal mistery.