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Is Hell an Illusion? Is Hell an Illusion?

02-04-2012 , 02:26 PM
Is hell an illusion created or tolerated by God to keep people closer to the straight and narrow in life and thereby safer in this world?

I think it could be. Rather like when you visit a Third World country and all the tour guides tell you "You'll be all right as long as you stick to the main drag (street) and don't wander down any dark alleys."

Or is hell a delusion from the devil and God manages to turn an evil idea into a good use by a majority of people who will never engage in the semantics that a lot of philosophically inclined people will engage in?

Last edited by Splendour; 02-04-2012 at 02:32 PM.
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02-04-2012 , 02:33 PM
Don't you find it a wee bit worrying that to trust God to be what you believe, you must distrust what God says?
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02-04-2012 , 02:34 PM
No...I think the point of the faith journey is to move from the carnal/literal/physical/temporal to the spiritual/figurative-symbolic-mystical/eternal...

We get hung up on the journey all kinds of ways...But then I expect we're suppose to.

How do you teach people not to do things for all eternity without the experience of consequences?
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02-04-2012 , 11:17 PM
Illusion? Well replace God with early man in your OP and its prolly the mist accurate thing you have ever posted. Hell is fabricated yes Splen you are getting there.
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02-04-2012 , 11:41 PM
Yes. Hell is not real.
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02-05-2012 , 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pooter
Illusion? Well replace God with early man in your OP and its prolly the mist accurate thing you have ever posted. Hell is fabricated yes Splen you are getting there.
I have no interest in a godless universe.
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02-05-2012 , 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I have no interest in a godless universe.
Why? If you could somehow *know* God did not exist, would that ruin life for you?
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02-05-2012 , 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krmont22
Why? If you could somehow *know* God did not exist, would that ruin life for you?
Yes. God is the best part of the family.
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02-05-2012 , 02:29 AM
lol so very very sad i pity you.
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02-05-2012 , 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I have no interest in a godless universe.
If it was somehow revealed that there is no God, then that would be the truth about the universe. How could you possibly be upset with the truth? Isn't that the goal of everything, to know the truth?
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02-05-2012 , 02:32 PM
There are many ruined buildings, but no ruined stones.
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02-05-2012 , 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I have no interest in a godless universe.
Our ancestors understood origins by extrapolating from their own experience. How else could they have done it? So the Universe was hatched from a cosmic egg, or conceived in the sexual congress of a mother god and a father god, or was a kind of product of the Creator’s workshop—perhaps the latest of many flawed attempts. And the Universe was not much bigger than we see, and not much older than our written or oral records, and nowhere very different from places that we know.

We’ve tended in our cosmologies to make things familiar. Despite all our best efforts, we’ve not been very inventive. In the West, Heaven is placid and fluffy, and Hell is like the inside of a volcano. In many stories, both realms are governed by dominance hierarchies headed by gods or devils. Monotheists talked about the king of kings. In every culture we imagined something like our own political system running the Universe. Few found the similarity suspicious.

Then science came along and taught us that we are not the measure of all things, that there are wonders unimagined, that the Universe is not obliged to conform to what we consider comfortable or plausible. We have learned something about the idiosyncratic nature of our common sense. Science has carried human self-consciousness to a higher level. This is surely a rite of passage, a step towards maturity. It contrasts starkly with the childishness and narcissism of our pre-Copernican notions.

And, again, if we’re not important, not central, not the apple of God’s eye, what is implied for our theologically based moral codes? The discovery of our true bearings in the Cosmos was resisted for so long and to such a degree that many traces of the debate remain, sometimes with the motives of the geocentrists laid bare.

What do we really want from philosophy and religion? Palliatives? Therapy? Comfort? Do we want reassuring fables or an understanding of our actual circumstances? Dismay that the Universe does not conform to our preferences seems childish. You might think that grown-ups would be ashamed to put such disappointments into print. The fashionable way of doing this is not to blame the Universe—which seems truly pointless—but rather to blame the means by which we know the Universe, namely science.

Science has taught us that, because we have a talent for deceiving ourselves, subjectivity may not freely reign.


Its conclusions derive from the interrogation of Nature, and are not in all cases predesigned to satisfy our wants.

We recognize that even revered religious leaders, the products of their time as we are of ours, may have made mistakes. Religions contradict one another on small matters, such as whether we should put on a hat or take one off on entering a house of worship, or whether we should eat beef and eschew pork or the other way around, all the way to the most central issues, such as whether there are no gods, one God, or many gods.

If you lived two or three millennia ago, there was no shame in holding that the Universe was made for us. It was an appealing thesis consistent with everything we knew; it was what the most learned among us taught without qualification. But we have found out much since then. Defending such a position today amounts to willful disregard of the evidence, and a flight from self-knowledge.

We long to be here for a purpose, even though, despite much self-deception, none is evident.

Our time is burdened under the cumulative weight of successive debunkings of our conceits: We’re Johnny-come-latelies. We live in the cosmic boondocks. We emerged from microbes and muck. Apes are our cousins. Our thoughts and feelings are not fully under our own control. There may be much smarter and very different beings elsewhere. And on top of all this, we’re making a mess of our planet and becoming a danger to ourselves.

The trapdoor beneath our feet swings open. We find ourselves in bottomless free fall. We are lost in a great darkness, and there’s no one to send out a search party. Given so harsh a reality, of course we’re tempted to shut our eyes and pretend that we’re safe and snug at home, that the fall is only a bad dream.

Once we overcome our fear of being tiny, we find ourselves on the threshold of a vast and awesome Universe that utterly dwarfs—in time, in space, and in potential—the tidy anthropocentric proscenium of our ancestors. We gaze across billions of light-years of space to view the Universe shortly after the Big Bang, and plumb the fine structure of matter. We peer down into the core of our planet, and the blazing interior of our star. We read the genetic language in which is written the diverse skills and propensities of every being on Earth. We uncover hidden chapters in the record of our own origins, and with some anguish better understand our nature and prospects. We invent and refine agriculture, without which almost all of us would starve to death. We create medicines and vaccines that save the lives of billions. We communicate at the speed of light, and whip around the Earth in an hour and a half. We have sent dozens of ships to more than seventy worlds, and four spacecraft to the stars.

To our ancestors there was much in Nature to be afraid of—lightning, storms, earthquakes, volcanos, plagues, drought, long winters. Religions arose in part as attempts to propitiate and control, if not much to understand, the disorderly aspect of Nature.

How much more satisfying had we been placed in a garden custom-made for us, its other occupants put there for us to use as we saw fit. There is a celebrated story in the Western tradition like this, except that not quite everything was there for us. There was one particular tree of which we were not to partake, a tree of knowledge. Knowledge and understanding and wisdom were forbidden to us in this story. We were to be kept ignorant. But we couldn’t help ourselves. We were starving for knowledge—created hungry, you might say. This was the origin of all our troubles. In particular, it is why we no longer live in a garden: We found out too much. So long as we were incurious and obedient, I imagine, we could console ourselves with our importance and centrality, and tell ourselves that we were the reason the Universe was made. As we began to indulge our curiosity, though, to explore, to learn how the Universe really is, we expelled ourselves from Eden. Angels with a flaming sword were set as sentries at the gates of Paradise to bar our return. The gardeners became exiles and wanderers. Occasionally we mourn that lost world, but that, it seems to me, is maudlin and sentimental. We could not happily have remained ignorant forever.

There is in this Universe much of what seems to be design.

But instead, we repeatedly discover that natural processes—collisional selection of worlds, say, or natural selection of gene pools, or even the convection pattern in a pot of boiling water—can extract order out of chaos, and deceive us into deducing purpose where there is none.

The significance of our lives and our fragile planet is then determined only by our own wisdom and courage. We are the custodians of life’s meaning. We long for a Parent to care for us, to forgive us our errors, to save us from our childish mistakes. But knowledge is preferable to ignorance. Better by far to embrace the hard truth than a reassuring fable.

If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal.
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02-05-2012 , 06:57 PM
here's the video version if you're interested: http://www.haveabit.com/sagan/24
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02-05-2012 , 07:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkm8
If we crave some cosmic purpose, then let us find ourselves a worthy goal.
Why is long-term survival not a worthy goal? We always want something more meaningful...yet the very origins of all our morals, desires and fears, can all be related back to this very goal of - survival.

Following this goal - we require more knowledge - because we require better technologies - because better technologies - facilitate our long-term survival...Doesn't it all fit? Or is this goal just not 'good enough'?, why do we always have to look for a more 'meaningful' goal that just simply doesn't fit reality?
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02-06-2012 , 03:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDDzz`
Why is long-term survival not a worthy goal? We always want something more meaningful...yet the very origins of all our morals, desires and fears, can all be related back to this very goal of - survival.

Following this goal - we require more knowledge - because we require better technologies - because better technologies - facilitate our long-term survival...Doesn't it all fit? Or is this goal just not 'good enough'?, why do we always have to look for a more 'meaningful' goal that just simply doesn't fit reality?
When did I ever say that long-term survival is not a worthy goal? That excerpt I quoted from Carl Sagan doesn't imply it either..

I think it is the most worthy goal, and the sooner we can focus on activities that will maximize our chances for long-term survival the better.
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02-06-2012 , 04:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkm8
When did I ever say that long-term survival is not a worthy goal? That excerpt I quoted from Carl Sagan doesn't imply it either..

I think it is the most worthy goal, and the sooner we can focus on activities that will maximize our chances for long-term survival the better.
Ah no, I wasn't attacking the excerpt, but just contributing my own thoughts, based on that concluding quote. Glad to see we're in agreement though, there is far too many philosophers on these forums that separate morality, desires and fears from the need to survive, and attribute some sort of special meaning to them - as if they're more than just tools evolved to guide survival.

There's even more philosophers here that don't actually consider survival as a goal or a purpose, or that view other invented and 'special' purposes (refer to the previous paragraph) as of being higher priority.

Last edited by VeeDDzz`; 02-06-2012 at 04:33 AM.
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02-06-2012 , 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_780
If it was somehow revealed that there is no God, then that would be the truth about the universe. How could you possibly be upset with the truth? Isn't that the goal of everything, to know the truth?
the goal is to be happy inside. thats why religion is constantly telling you that you are looked over, protected, loved, and have a shiney spot waiting for you after you die.

similar to what you'd tell a population if you were running a dictator state to keep people from despair.

the last goal on the list for religion is "the truth." despite what they may say.
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02-06-2012 , 07:39 AM
Hell is about 300 metres below the surface of the earth.
I found an amazing article on google written by the united nations, i think kofi annan was the author, and there is a joint worldwide project to mine down there to have a look.

Ahh no wait, no one in the world believes it is real, even the pope knows it is a metaphor.
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02-06-2012 , 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
Don't you find it a wee bit worrying that to trust God to be what you believe, you must distrust what God says?
Look at this thread. Isn't it loaded with biases?

Didn't God know He was giving Jesus and His Holy Writ into the hands of men and that sooner or later tradition would assert itself and institutionalize their interpretations?

When people got ahold of the scriptures the ideas then started to pass through the minds of men who interpreted them as best they could. Two major schools formed: Reformed theology and Arminian theology. Universalism is the best amalgamation of both. It answers the gaps between the two and some people say Universalism is the original school. Didn't God start Judaism so it could be the light to all nations (but they had an obedience problem that plagued them)?

Think about the word "sent"....Moses was sent, Jesus was sent, the Apostles were sent....

People were and are never in control of this, however, many movements or churchs they start...Everyone is sent. So God's nature is controlling and God's mercy is higher than His justice. The mercy seat (does that represent God's mind?) is over the scrolls of the law (is that God's just heart?) in the ark of the covenant....We trust in a good God not in people's interpretations ultimately however authoritative they seem to be...People always have trouble with appearances so they keep forgetting this...It goes back to Genesis 3 when Eve is tricked by the serpent by the appearance of the fruit on the Tree of Knowledge...

God does tolerate tradition though Jesus condemned the distortions of the truth that it causes. Traditions aren't always all bad.

You can read what God says about the Rechabites in the book of Jeremiah.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...35&version=CEV

Last edited by Splendour; 02-06-2012 at 09:14 AM.
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02-06-2012 , 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_780
If it was somehow revealed that there is no God, then that would be the truth about the universe. How could you possibly be upset with the truth? Isn't that the goal of everything, to know the truth?
I don't totally trust physical evidence.

And I don't trust philosophy either. Though it's a cute game for making your mind sharper and a lot of people need to walk their mental dog.

When you look at certain philosophies you think you're following a set of ideas but you could be following a mind and certain philosophers had personality dispositions that formed their views/theories. So while they seem to be logically articulating ideas they could actually just be rationally articulating/validating their own personalities.

Ayn Rand for example seems to be given to selfishness and articulated a view of it and she also lived a very selfish life destructive of other people around her's well being.

Quote: "Many commentators have criticized Objectivist ethics. In the essay "On the Randian Argument", Robert Nozick, while sympathetic to Rand's political conclusions, is particularly critical of Rand's foundational argument in ethics, which states that one's own life is, for each individual, the ultimate value because it makes all other values possible. He argues that to make her argument sound, one needs to explain why someone could not rationally prefer dying and having no values. Thus, her attempt to defend the morality of selfishness is, in his view, essentially an instance of begging the question."

So you have to beware the mind/personality behind the ideas. I'd trust Jesus Christ before a Rand. Jesus Christ was a footwasher.
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02-06-2012 , 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I don't totally trust physical evidence.

And I don't trust philosophy either. Though it's a cute game for making your mind sharper and a lot of people need to walk their mental dog.

When you look at certain philosophies you think you're following a set of ideas but you could be following a mind and certain philosophers had personality dispositions that formed their views/theories. So while they seem to be logically articulating ideas they could actually just be rationally articulating/validating their own personalities.

Ayn Rand for example seems to be given to selfishness and articulated a view of it and she also lived a very selfish life destructive of other people around her's well being.

Quote: "Many commentators have criticized Objectivist ethics. In the essay "On the Randian Argument", Robert Nozick, while sympathetic to Rand's political conclusions, is particularly critical of Rand's foundational argument in ethics, which states that one's own life is, for each individual, the ultimate value because it makes all other values possible. He argues that to make her argument sound, one needs to explain why someone could not rationally prefer dying and having no values. Thus, her attempt to defend the morality of selfishness is, in his view, essentially an instance of begging the question."

So you have to beware the mind/personality behind the ideas. I'd trust Jesus Christ before a Rand. Jesus Christ was a footwasher.
I'm not trying to say I can prove God doesn't exist with physical evidence (although with how much we know about the Universe now, it's getting close) Just more of a hypothetical that can be linked to philosophy, yes.

I'm not sure how you can "not trust" physical evidence. It's the most trust worthy thing there is because it's there, it's tangible, it's measurable, it's concrete. Our whole judicial system is based around it's reliability.

The "cute game" of expanding your thoughts is responsible for the majority of advancements humans have made. Instead of walking your dog, you'd rather keep it caged up and reassure it that it will be safe and fine without exercise.

If one is capable of critically examining the ideas, the logical or moral merit of the person should be revealed.
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02-06-2012 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_780
I'm not trying to say I can prove God doesn't exist with physical evidence (although with how much we know about the Universe now, it's getting close) Just more of a hypothetical that can be linked to philosophy, yes.

I'm not sure how you can "not trust" physical evidence. It's the most trust worthy thing there is because it's there, it's tangible, it's measurable, it's concrete. Our whole judicial system is based around it's reliability.

The "cute game" of expanding your thoughts is responsible for the majority of advancements humans have made. Instead of walking your dog, you'd rather keep it caged up and reassure it that it will be safe and fine without exercise.

If one is capable of critically examining the ideas, the logical or moral merit of the person should be revealed.
I think physical evidence is unstable (because science changes and not because we don't have evidence), faith is a special category and insistence on evidence is mainly from certain biased personalities who are missing God's point.

C.S. Lewis is an example.

Quote: "Best known as a Christian apologist, C.S. Lewis argued for a reason-based Christianity rather than a faith-based Christianity. This is a curious decision on his part because, first, traditional Christianity is unquestionably faith-based"

Quote: "In Mere Christianity, Lewis writes: “I am not asking anyone to accept Christianity if his best reasoning tells him that the weight of the evidence is against it.” All of his books are designed to argue that a person’s best reasoning should tell them that the weight of evidence is in favor of Christianity, and hence that a reasonable person should be a Christian. This directly contradicts the traditional notion that a person should be a Christian on the basis of faith, and moreover that it is morally better for a person to believe because of faith rather than evidence."

http://atheism.about.com/od/cslewisn.../apologist.htm

There are 2 types of Christians: fideists and evidentialists.

I'm a fideist but the strange thing is being a fideist could encapsulate evidence. That is if you consider perception as a type of sensory evidence.

Everyone has perception so imo every Christian has evidence whether or not it meets scientific criteria.

In fact you could consider it untamperable. You can only tamper with perception if people don't trust their own perception based judgments and allow themselves to be talked out of their own value judgments.

Last edited by Splendour; 02-06-2012 at 06:39 PM. Reason: added link.
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02-06-2012 , 07:20 PM
Science doesn't change, it's always been here; we just keep discovering more of it.

So C.S. Lewis says, "you shouldn't be Christian if the weight of evidence is against it.." but also, "a reasonable person should be a Christian.."? If reason is defined by making a decision based on logic and fact, then C.S. is contradicting himself.

Aren't there a billion types of Christians? But still only one branch of physics, weird....

Perception can be altered in all sorts of ways. The laws of our Universe cannot.
Is Hell an Illusion? Quote
02-06-2012 , 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I think physical evidence is unstable (because science changes and not because we don't have evidence), faith is a special category and insistence on evidence is mainly from certain biased personalities who are missing God's point.

C.S. Lewis is an example.

Quote: "Best known as a Christian apologist, C.S. Lewis argued for a reason-based Christianity rather than a faith-based Christianity. This is a curious decision on his part because, first, traditional Christianity is unquestionably faith-based"

Quote: "In Mere Christianity, Lewis writes: “I am not asking anyone to accept Christianity if his best reasoning tells him that the weight of the evidence is against it.” All of his books are designed to argue that a person’s best reasoning should tell them that the weight of evidence is in favor of Christianity, and hence that a reasonable person should be a Christian. This directly contradicts the traditional notion that a person should be a Christian on the basis of faith, and moreover that it is morally better for a person to believe because of faith rather than evidence."

http://atheism.about.com/od/cslewisn.../apologist.htm

There are 2 types of Christians: fideists and evidentialists.

I'm a fideist but the strange thing is being a fideist could encapsulate evidence. That is if you consider perception as a type of sensory evidence.

Everyone has perception so imo every Christian has evidence whether or not it meets scientific criteria.

In fact you could consider it untamperable. You can only tamper with perception if people don't trust their own perception based judgments and allow themselves to be talked out of their own value judgments.
It's a little incongruent to say that in one instance - my belief is not based on evidence, and in the other, acknowledge that - your whole life is based on evidence (via sensory perception).

You're holding a belief (in God) based on faith, while conducting your life, based on evidence. How do you justify this incongruency?
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02-06-2012 , 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pg_780
Science doesn't change, it's always been here; we just keep discovering more of it.

I don't accord it full authority. If a hundred years ago some man had told you one day people would be talking across continents through a little metal box you would have skeptically laughed your head off. In 1 Corinthians 15 we're told via the inspired word that people can be resurrected with new bodies. You want to laugh your head off?

So C.S. Lewis says, "you shouldn't be Christian if the weight of evidence is against it.." but also, "a reasonable person should be a Christian.."? If reason is defined by making a decision based on logic and fact, then C.S. is contradicting himself.

I'm not sure what he considers evidence. But people overlook that your brain is a weighing apparatus via perception.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception


Aren't there a billion types of Christians? But still only one branch of physics,
weird....

I'm just listing the 2 general epistemological categories of believers. Usually perception is overlooked in the fideist category. But there's no such thing as blind faith...are there blind value judgments? I doubt it. The brain assesses whether it has a lot of data or very little with different levels of acuity.

Perception can be altered in all sorts of ways. The laws of our Universe cannot.

I didn't set the faith based system up. But people are still following it.
...
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