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Old 06-24-2018, 07:28 PM   #76
Original Position
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Don’t call me a liar. This is the second time you’ve thrown the insults in when your arguments run into difficulty. You need to understand that there are also other places in the New Testament where its authors have to make adjustments in the Old Testament language to make things work. And, if the Old Testament language is the word of God, no adjustments should ever be made.

Mason
I'm also confused as to your argument. Orthodox Christian theology is explicit that the future resurrection is a bodily one. The details here about how the resurrection works obviously differ from Jewish eschatology, but it would not be considered controversial for a Christian to assert the resurrection of the dead. For instance, here is the Catholic Encyclopedia:

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The creeds and professions of faith and conciliar definitions do not leave it doubtful that the resurrection of the body is a dogma or an article of faith. We may appeal, for instance, to the Apostles' Creed, the so-called Nicene and Athanasian Creeds, the Creed of the Eleventh Council of Toledo, the Creed of Leo IX, subscribed by Bishop Peter and still in use at the consecration of bishops the profession of faith subscribed by Michael Palaeologus in the Second Council of Lyons, the Creed of Pius IV, and the Decree of the Fourth Lateran Council (c. "Firmiter") against the Albigenses. This article of faith is based on the belief of the Old Testament, on the teaching of the New Testament, and on Christian tradition.
How exactly this connects to Heaven is the subject of a lot of debate between rival theologies, but they do generally assume the resurrection of the dead as a precondition.

If you are arguing that the New Testament misrepresents the meaning of several Old Testament passages, I agree. I think the standard Christian answer is that these were not misrepresentations, but rather revelatory interpretations of these passages given to the authors of the New Testament.

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Old 06-24-2018, 09:20 PM   #77
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

I don't have to insult you. You got caught lying plain and simple and until you can acknowledge that there's nothing to discuss. There is absolutely nothing in the Jewish Scriptures that contradicts the idea Christians have about the resurrection. You tried to throw Zechariah 13 in as a contradiction, which made no sense, so I asked you why you included it and you came up with some strange reason why "on that day" means the resurrection, but then just a few posts later deny even claiming that it has anything to do with the resurrection.

As for the "he" vs "me" thing, it's like if I told you I went surfing the other day and later you tell your wife "they" went surfing because you assumed I went with friends because I usually do. Just because you used the wrong pronoun doesn't mean what you said is void. The text doesn't have to be translated word for word to get the meaning across. Even modern Jewish texts in English are not translated word for word because it would read awkwardly. In the text, the Lord is clearly associating with the one who was pierced. In one part of the sentences he uses "me" and later in that same sentence he uses "he." It's like "the Lord said to my Lord." How do you explain that? It's explainable using page one of the Bible, where Elohim refers to himself as "we."

Based on your refusal to admit to the most obvious and trivial lie it's clear that you have no interest in the truth and are willfully blind and determined to always come up with SOME excuse not to believe because you hate the truth and suppress it, but you will come to realize you're only hurting yourself and God is not mocked.

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Old 06-25-2018, 06:31 PM   #78
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Originally Posted by Loading.... View Post
I don't have to insult you. You got caught lying plain and simple and until you can acknowledge that there's nothing to discuss. There is absolutely nothing in the Jewish Scriptures that contradicts the idea Christians have about the resurrection. You tried to throw Zechariah 13 in as a contradiction, which made no sense, so I asked you why you included it and you came up with some strange reason why "on that day" means the resurrection, but then just a few posts later deny even claiming that it has anything to do with the resurrection.

As for the "he" vs "me" thing, it's like if I told you I went surfing the other day and later you tell your wife "they" went surfing because you assumed I went with friends because I usually do. Just because you used the wrong pronoun doesn't mean what you said is void. The text doesn't have to be translated word for word to get the meaning across. Even modern Jewish texts in English are not translated word for word because it would read awkwardly. In the text, the Lord is clearly associating with the one who was pierced. In one part of the sentences he uses "me" and later in that same sentence he uses "he." It's like "the Lord said to my Lord." How do you explain that? It's explainable using page one of the Bible, where Elohim refers to himself as "we."

Based on your refusal to admit to the most obvious and trivial lie it's clear that you have no interest in the truth and are willfully blind and determined to always come up with SOME excuse not to believe because you hate the truth and suppress it, but you will come to realize you're only hurting yourself and God is not mocked.
No. As you discovered in your Isaiah 53 thread, things aren’t always what you believe:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...rring-1621031/

The Old Testament needs to be read in its exact language and in the proper context. That’s why in Isaiah 53 you need to start reading at Isaiah 42. And as for the resurrection of Jesus, i’ve made no comment on that. What I’ve said is that the Jewish belief of resurrection of the dead seems to me to be inconsistent with the Christian belief of Heaven and Hell.

By the way, why don’t you tell us what The Valley of the Dry bones, which is in Ezekiel is about?

Mason
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Old 06-26-2018, 06:30 AM   #79
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
No. As you discovered in your Isaiah 53 thread, things aren’t always what you believe:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...rring-1621031/

The Old Testament needs to be read in its exact language and in the proper context. That’s why in Isaiah 53 you need to start reading at Isaiah 42. And as for the resurrection of Jesus, i’ve made no comment on that. What I’ve said is that the Jewish belief of resurrection of the dead seems to me to be inconsistent with the Christian belief of Heaven and Hell.

By the way, why don’t you tell us what The Valley of the Dry bones, which is in Ezekiel is about?

Mason
What's the inconsistency? Christians also believe in the resurrection of the dead into physical bodies. Here's Paul:

Quote:
1 Corinthians 15:35-57:
But someone will ask, ‘How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?’ Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. Not all flesh is alike, but there is one flesh for human beings, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; indeed, star differs from star in glory.

So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, ‘The first man, Adam, became a living being’; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is* from heaven. As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will* also bear the image of the man of heaven.

What I am saying, brothers and sisters,* is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die,* but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled:
‘Death has been swallowed up in victory.’
‘Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?’
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Here Paul is laying out a theology that Jesus triumphed over death, and as a result at the final trumpet his followers would be granted magical new bodies that wouldn't be subject to aging or disease. Paul is writing late enough that some of Jesus' followers have probably already died, so he also claims that those followers who have died will be resurrected (because of Jesus' triumph over death) and also granted these new heavenly bodies. This is an account of a physical resurrection (even if of a heavenly type of physicality), not of just immaterial souls in hell or heaven. Thus, I don't really see a contradiction here between a Hebrew Scriptures that teaches a physical resurrection in the end times and standard Christian theology.
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Old 06-27-2018, 01:30 AM   #80
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
What's the inconsistency? Christians also believe in the resurrection of the dead into physical bodies. Here's Paul:



Here Paul is laying out a theology that Jesus triumphed over death, and as a result at the final trumpet his followers would be granted magical new bodies that wouldn't be subject to aging or disease. Paul is writing late enough that some of Jesus' followers have probably already died, so he also claims that those followers who have died will be resurrected (because of Jesus' triumph over death) and also granted these new heavenly bodies. This is an account of a physical resurrection (even if of a heavenly type of physicality), not of just immaterial souls in hell or heaven. Thus, I don't really see a contradiction here between a Hebrew Scriptures that teaches a physical resurrection in the end times and standard Christian theology.
Hi Original:

This is exactly what I’m talking about. The way I understand this is that Paul is saying that upon death the soul (or spirit) leaves the body and then goes on to heaven or hell and the flesh is left behind.

Jews believe that a day will come when the body will come out of the grave, the flesh will be reattached, and the person will live again, just like you are living now. That’s a big difference.

By the way, isn’t there a story in the New Testament where this exact thing happens. That is dead people come out of their graves and live again (for at least a while).

Mason
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Old 06-27-2018, 02:50 PM   #81
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Original:

This is exactly what I’m talking about. The way I understand this is that Paul is saying that upon death the soul (or spirit) leaves the body and then goes on to heaven or hell and the flesh is left behind.
You are describing a common popular understanding of Christian theology about Heaven and death, but I'll just repeat, this is not the view of most Christian churches. Rather, they understand Paul and the Bible more generally to teach that in the end days Christians will be resurrected into new special immortal bodies that they'll live in for the rest of eternity with God (possibly on a New Earth as well). This is not the same as souls floating up to heaven after death.

There are historical reasons that point to this as well. One of the most dangerous heresies in the early Christian Church was Marcionism. This heresy rejected the Hebrew Bible and the Hebrew God as being evil and not part of true Christianity. Part of this rejection was an embrace of a more dualistic account of humans as being soul and body and (like the Gnostics) rejecting the body and flesh as inherently bad. Thus, Marcionites also rejected the resurrection of the physical body in the end times because, Marcion claimed, "flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God." Many of the most important doctrines of the Christian Church (eg the Trinity, the canon) were worked out in response to Marcion's beliefs. Thus, it was important to the Church's eventual orthodox theology to emphasize the physical character of the resurrection of the dead as a way of emphasizing its rejection of alternative theologies.

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Jews believe that a day will come when the body will come out of the grave, the flesh will be reattached, and the person will live again, just like you are living now. That’s a big difference.
Again, growing up as an American evangelical Christian, this is almost exactly the same thing I was taught. The only difference is I was taught the body would be transformed into a better, more spiritual (but still physical) body. Here is the official Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Quote:
ARTICLE 11
"I BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY"

989 We firmly believe, and hence we hope that, just as Christ is truly risen from the dead and lives for ever, so after death the righteous will live for ever with the risen Christ and he will raise them up on the last day.534 Our resurrection, like his own, will be the work of the Most Holy Trinity:

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit who dwells in you.535
990 The term "flesh" refers to man in his state of weakness and mortality.536 The "resurrection of the flesh" (the literal formulation of the Apostles' Creed) means not only that the immortal soul will live on after death, but that even our "mortal body" will come to life again.537

991 Belief in the resurrection of the dead has been an essential element of the Christian faith from its beginnings. "The confidence of Christians is the resurrection of the dead; believing this we live."
Here's Paul again:

Quote:
Romans 8:11:
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.
I just don't think this is a real problem for Christian theology. I'll acknowledge that many Christians talk about heaven in the way you describe, and I'm sure many of them even believe it. But not because they are following traditional Christian teachings.

Quote:
By the way, isn’t there a story in the New Testament where this exact thing happens. That is dead people come out of their graves and live again (for at least a while).

Mason
Yes, after Jesus' death the graves were said to have opened and some of the dead to have walked among us (Matthew 27:52-53).

Last edited by Original Position; 06-27-2018 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:53 PM   #82
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

Focusing upon the present "body" or "body of materiality" in a stasis doesn't speak to the "evolution of the physical body" which appears to be lost in theology and science as we know it.

The physical body of the scientist is the "corpse" .

The "living physical body" is the "corpse" brought to a higher level of existence such as we are in sleep, alive and non sentient. This body which brings life to the physical is in esoteric nomenclature the "etheric body" which has other names but is not the "ether " of 19th century science. It is supersensible ..... The plant kingdom also has this life body .

The third body of Man is the astral body or body of sentience, intellectuality, and self consciousness. In this realm is what is termed the 'soul" . The animal kingdom also has this body.

The highest body of Man is his "Ego" or "I" or that to which exists in the highest regions of spirit land. The earthly "ego" of Man is an echo of this "I" to which we all are immersed.

Physical Body --mineral kingdom
Etheric Body--plant kingdom
Astral Body--animal kingdom
Ego-- human kingdom

If you see a man approaching, what is seen is the amalgamation of the 4 bodies and not the physical body.

The Christ Being didn't come to earth in order that the "resurrected body" would be as our present state of affairs. ' Time" must be considered for as our body(s) developed within time eons ago so does the human body(s) develop into the future and what was resurrected was the 'future state of Man" the purified body(s) of Man brought to the futuristic evolutionary state.

The "Resurrected Body of Christ" is the futuristic template of all mankind , a guide for all of us in freedom without coercion. This means that we will be able to self create this body within the Christ Being who sits in our earthly as "Spirit of the Earth".

Through Christ "death is overcome" and in this we all have the resurrected body, the "Body of Christ". The future is another state of existence without death. We work on our body(s) through recurrent lives which are not the same from life to life; this is the progression of man which is not done within one life span.

Christ is a Cosmic Being who in the councils of the Divine Beings was sent to the earth as there was consternation in the heavens as to whether mankind can reach his appointed destination, of that to which the hierarchical angels of the "Good" had planned prior to Lucifer.

Time, past and present, are not the same and this is the world of the noble human, the humanity of Christ.

Clear, I know, ....
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:36 PM   #83
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Yes, after Jesus' death the graves were said to have opened and some of the dead to have walked among us (Matthew 27:52-53).
While not the exact topic of this thread, if this actually happened, it would have been the most incredible event in all of history. Yet historical writings are completely silent on this.

When I write about the differences between Judaism and Christianity, in most cases, I try not to be critical of something that someone else might believe. However, here, I have very strong doubts. It's hard to believe that this ever happened, for if it did, not only would we still be writing about it today, but all our science would be different with this being the number one topic of research in some sort of effort to make it happen again.

Mason
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:45 PM   #84
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Originally Posted by carlo View Post
Focusing upon the present "body" or "body of materiality" in a stasis doesn't speak to the "evolution of the physical body" which appears to be lost in theology and science as we know it.

The physical body of the scientist is the "corpse" .

The "living physical body" is the "corpse" brought to a higher level of existence such as we are in sleep, alive and non sentient. This body which brings life to the physical is in esoteric nomenclature the "etheric body" which has other names but is not the "ether " of 19th century science. It is supersensible ..... The plant kingdom also has this life body .

The third body of Man is the astral body or body of sentience, intellectuality, and self consciousness. In this realm is what is termed the 'soul" . The animal kingdom also has this body.

The highest body of Man is his "Ego" or "I" or that to which exists in the highest regions of spirit land. The earthly "ego" of Man is an echo of this "I" to which we all are immersed.

Physical Body --mineral kingdom
Etheric Body--plant kingdom
Astral Body--animal kingdom
Ego-- human kingdom

If you see a man approaching, what is seen is the amalgamation of the 4 bodies and not the physical body.

The Christ Being didn't come to earth in order that the "resurrected body" would be as our present state of affairs. ' Time" must be considered for as our body(s) developed within time eons ago so does the human body(s) develop into the future and what was resurrected was the 'future state of Man" the purified body(s) of Man brought to the futuristic evolutionary state.

The "Resurrected Body of Christ" is the futuristic template of all mankind , a guide for all of us in freedom without coercion. This means that we will be able to self create this body within the Christ Being who sits in our earthly as "Spirit of the Earth".

Through Christ "death is overcome" and in this we all have the resurrected body, the "Body of Christ". The future is another state of existence without death. We work on our body(s) through recurrent lives which are not the same from life to life; this is the progression of man which is not done within one life span.

Christ is a Cosmic Being who in the councils of the Divine Beings was sent to the earth as there was consternation in the heavens as to whether mankind can reach his appointed destination, of that to which the hierarchical angels of the "Good" had planned prior to Lucifer.

Time, past and present, are not the same and this is the world of the noble human, the humanity of Christ.

Clear, I know, ....
Hi Carlo:

I'm not going to dispute any of what you have written since, as far as I can tell, it's what Christians believe. But Jews have very different beliefs when it comes to this stuff. And what I'm saying is that Christianity is not the Jewish religion with Jesus, and all the stuff that goes with the belief in Jesus, added on. There are a number of things that are very different and the religions are further apart than many Christian Evangelists say they are.

Best wishes,
Mason
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:07 PM   #85
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Carlo:

I'm not going to dispute any of what you have written since, as far as I can tell, it's what Christians believe. But Jews have very different beliefs when it comes to this stuff. And what I'm saying is that Christianity is not the Jewish religion with Jesus, and all the stuff that goes with the belief in Jesus, added on. There are a number of things that are very different and the religions are further apart than many Christian Evangelists say they are.

Best wishes,
Mason
Yes the question, to mainstream Christianity is still in the process of comprehension so you're not alone. One main issue of which I presented was the concepts of reincarnation and karma to which the churches , on the whole, are in denial.

Judaism has its own approach to these questions within the Kabbalah which is also an esoteric approach to matters of the soul.

Thanx.

https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...ncarnation.htm
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Old 07-05-2018, 03:07 PM   #86
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

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Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Carlo:

I'm not going to dispute any of what you have written since, as far as I can tell, it's what Christians believe. But Jews have very different beliefs when it comes to this stuff. And what I'm saying is that Christianity is not the Jewish religion with Jesus, and all the stuff that goes with the belief in Jesus, added on. There are a number of things that are very different and the religions are further apart than many Christian Evangelists say they are.

Best wishes,
Mason
If you want to know what Christians believe this question and answer on gotquestions.org might be helpful.

Last edited by walkby; 07-05-2018 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 07-06-2018, 03:26 PM   #87
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Re: Heaven and the Resurrection of the Dead

Hey, Mason. Here's a video from www.gotquestions.org that might be helpful too. It's basically a reading of the question and answer I linked to (with some minor adjustments) along with some other stuff.


Last edited by walkby; 07-06-2018 at 03:34 PM.
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