Hi Everyone:

I'm going to get into something that I don't know enough about to discuss well, but still think it can make for an interesting discussion.

As I think everyone here knows, Christians believe that when death comes, the soul goes to either Heaven or Hell.

Jews on the other hand, believe in the resurrection of the dead. This means, for instance, that if I was to live long enough, I would have the opportunity to meet my great-great-great-great-great grandfather.

Now it also seems to me that if one of these is true, the other can't be accurate. From my perspective, it doesn't make sense to go to Heaven (or Hell) and then be a part of the dead that was resurrected. It also doesn't make sense to even be concerned, again from my perspective, with Heaven or Hell if you believe in the resurrection of the dead.

All comment welcome.

Best wishes,
Mason

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...e-after-death/


All interesting and illuminating.

Where did you get the idea Christians don't believe in a resurrection? The NT mentions many times the future resurrection of the dead. Believers in Christ are resurrected to life (what you are calling heaven) and nonbelievers are resurrected to what the Bible calls 'the second death.' Heaven is just a word describing the ecstacy of eternity in Gods promised land. Notice the parallels with Judaism here. The Promised Land of the OT is physical, and also metaphorical of the future spiritual Promised Land, His eternal presence. Jesus is, of course, considered the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Paul quotes the OT: "Abrahams faith in Gods promise was counted to him as righteousness," and allowed his offspring to inherit the promised land. In the same way, faith in Christs death and resurrection counts to believers as righteousness, that they may enter the spiritual one.

No. Your resurrection has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Going to heaven and getting to meet your great-great-great-great-grandfather when you see him walking down the street are not the same thing.

Mason

https://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens-death.html

Christianity has a physical resurrection, just like what you're describing. Jesus Christ was the first one to resurrect, and a future one will resurrect all the dead. What difference does it make where you meet your resurrected grandfather?

Bart Ehrman is a heck of a scholar but he doesn't understand Christian doctrine, despite claiming to have been a Christian for years. Christian doctrine quite clearly states that Jesus physically rose from the dead and then ascended into heaven. So his body was in a resurrected physical/spiritual form. True Christians will follow suit at the end of the age. There is also reference to a mass ascension of resurrected believers. There is no contradiction here.

Hi DoOrDoNot:

This isn’t what I’m talking about. The way I understand it, Jews believe that everyone will be resurrected, but Christians believe that you go to Heaven or Hell, and if you go to one of those places, it doesn’t seem to me that it makes sense to come out of your grave and live again.

Best wishes,
Mason

Just finished listening to that about 5 minutes ago. I've been a Christian for about 10 years now and was fairly zealous about it and believed that if God is who he says he is then I can stress test the bible and things regarding to the Christian faith and it should hold up... I've searched high and lo and read and studied the bible to a level that many do not. I've prayed fervently for years on end and tackled the hardest questions I could possibly come up with concerning the Christian faith.

After ten years or so years, I am teetering on becoming an atheist. I cannot live with this cognitive dissonance any longer. I cannot "faith it over" and suppress logic and reasoning for what seems like ignorant faith. No answers from church authority seem to be sufficient either and seem to always be met with resistance. "How dare you question God and our theology, you're causing division and that's demonic. You have no faith. You're not perfect, get the log out of your own eye." I want God to be real, I have no qualms with Jesus, I just don't see it anymore... I'm open to it still, but not at the expense of being told to suppress my "god given" intellect.

Dang....


Appreciate the thread Mason, I'll be picking up your SNG book fairly soon.
See you on the other end.

What are you having an issue with? I might be able to help you out or possibly point you in the right direction.

My understanding of the Catholic/Christion version of the judgement process is that it is two-step. Since, upon death, the soul is thought to go immediately to heaven, hell or purgatory without physical bodies and without ceremony, the reckoning is considered incomplete. So, at the end of time, the Last Judgement occurs with a grand ceremony for all persons that have ever lived. with the soul and the body re-united, and with Christ present Everybody's status ends up the same as before except that those who were in purgatory, go to heaven. As far as the process being cumbersome, I suppose it is something like getting a college degree on the day you finish your coursework, but it not being “official” until the graduation ceremony.

I suppose it is possible that people could visit with each other during the Last Judgement. That would be quite an experience.

I appreciate your interest.

At this point I'd have to sit down and write out a concise thesis paper concerning the above issues and break them down accordingly. I'll get an outline going and try and get a rough draft written by the end of the week. I'll let you know when I post it.

I think what you're describing as Heaven and Hell is a simplistic and premature understanding of Christianity. I don't mean any offense by this, I just want to clarify. Unfortunately a lot of Christians have this understanding as well.

There is no real mention of 'hell' in the NT. There are some allusions to a place of future judgment.

I think, and please clarify if I am wrong here, that Jews believe that sinful people stay dead, whereas forgiven people will rise from the dead? What happens to sinners in the end?

Hi DoOrDoNot:

I think you're wrong. My understanding is that when people are brought out of their graves to live again, some of them will come back to great shame. And the ones with the greatest shame will be the false profits. I think the short book of Hosea has stuff on this and one of the false profits who has come back to great shame actually speaks.

However, this is a different issue from the question I asked (and I'm certainly not an expert on this stuff.)

Best wishes,
Mason

I thought purgatory is what the Catholic Church uses to explain the physical resurrection plus heaven and hell situation.

I’m not Catholic, but most of the specific answers to these type of specific scenarios are usually solid, after all they have had quite some time to come up with these answers...

Purgatory is a spiritual state of purification that a soul enters after death if it is not ready to enter Heaven. All souls in Purgatory will ultimately end up in Heaven. It is largely born out of the logical conclusion drawn from the idea that Heaven will be a perfect utopia with no sin, suffering, etc. Any soul that dies on earth must be perfect before entering Heaven. If they aren't perfect upon death, they must be purified. It has no real relation to the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead except that Purgatory is largely believed to end at the time of the resurrection.

Pokerlogist had a pretty good explanation of the Catholic doctrine of the afterlife in his post. I would add that after the last judgement, Catholics believe that the earth will be remade and will be the eternal home of the righteous; where you could most definitely meet your ancestors.

Here's gotquestions.org's answer to the question, "What does the Bible say about Purgatory?"

I have misunderstood the concept of purgatory, based on the feedback in the thread.

Is it required that Christianity agree with reformed Judaism anyway? One declares itself to be superior revelation to the other...

Mason it sounds like you're talking about reincarnation.

It seems to me there are very few passages in your Scriptures that talk about the resurrection, namely Daniel 12 and Isaiah 26:19- "Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise." The Lord Jesus brought this to full meaning and clarified when it will take place; "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:40

Also note that the resurrection has not yet occurred and won't until the last trumpet; "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." 1 Corinthians 15:52

Certain people have deviated from the faith, saying that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of others. (2 Timothy 2:18) but when Jesus returns, then it will happen. "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

I thought christians were supposed to be with their loved ones after death..somehow I can't get that to grok.
If X loves Y but Y hates X...what happens after death? Does X get to be with Y? Is Y forced to spend eternity with X? While such a broken symmetry may sound extreme then just extend it to
X loves Y but hates Z
Y loves Z but hates X
Z loves X but hates Y (or any other combination of roundabout love/hate incompatibilities. with large enough numbers of people such a situation is bound to occur)

I think there will be or are “loved ones”, but that the earthly relationships of spouses or parents or siblings are retired to the past life on earth. For instance, the Pharisees posed this exact question to Jeshua (Jesus) about persons who remarry on earth after their spouse dies.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

In the end the entire "afterlife" or "rebirth" thing is weird. It stems from people being afraid of being dead...but if you accept that the universe is 14+ billion years old (heck, even if you're a total fundamentalist and believe the Earth is just 4k years old)...did anyone care that he/she wasn't around for billions (thousands) of years until birth? No? Then why be concerned whether we're around in some form after death?

Because now you're aware to be concerned about it?

Why would I be concerned about something I can't experience?

What is this concern you're both referring to?

Why don't you think you'll experience death? Are you immortal? You will experience it, even if your presumptions about the experience are correct and it's an unconscious one.