I posted this here because i need to discuss this with people who have backrounds with religion. Any religion backround is good for me, but I am coming from a christian household (and still hold my faith true) and so does she.

I play poker for a living. It is my only source of income, and it is the most amount of money I can make for the time at this point in my life. It is going to stay that way AT LEAST till the end of college (sophomore right now.)

Me and her were talking today and she was mad at me today because I skipped dinner with her and my cousin and friend to finish a tournament i was running deep in (didn't place that well fwiw lol).

She doesnt believe that poker is a legitimate job and that it's not gauranteed income. I think it speaks for itself, ill post up the convo here.

lol so whats bothering you?
[Kaitlyn]
8:08pm
you and poker. haha
[You]
8:08pm
>>
[Kaitlyn]
8:11pm
okay its just annoying how you couldnt come down to dinner. like it just feels like poker always takes up sooo much time. like you friends were here and you started playing which kinda suprised me. even though dan left, andrew was still there right? and like even now i have to wait for you to finish just to hang out which you said earlier we could do. but now its questionable if we even will because of the poker your playing
i dont mean to make you feel bad and i feel like a bitch but i just needed to say something
[You]
8:14pm
your not abitch for speaking up babe ok? im your bf you should tell me if somethings bothering you like that, so dont feel bad. (and i knew you were mad! lol)
[Kaitlyn]
8:15pm
haha i'm not to discrete
[You]
8:20pm
but in regards to poker, its my job. If i was working any other job there wouldnt even be a chance for us to hang out tonight (unless i got the night off or something). Earlier you told me you were going to the library to study and i thought you would be there till late (like around 9ish or w.e). Dan ended up hangin out with that girl which i assumed he would be with for a few hours then would go home, (plus he said he was gunna stay to watch the game and i was gunna watch/play poker during the game anyways-and probably order in from dominos). I
was talking to andrew, and all he wanted to do was watch tv while dan was with the girl which is what he did. Plus we were still having a good time while i was playing so i thought itd be fine. and then, its sunday. sunday's my biggest day for poker, and every sunday my hourly is much greater than on any other day so its costing me alot to not play. Add that to i havent played all week. (like at all) i was just trying to put in a short session but then i registered in a bigger tournament and it turned out to be a ddeep run which im forced to stay
i normally play cash games which i can play for however long i want, but that one tournament messed up the session or whatever
what im tryin to say besides all this is that: poker is my job. its what i do for an income, and i need an income in order to live off of. its also more money than i could ever be making at ANY other job and normally has the convenience so i can play or do w.e wenever
[Kaitlyn ]
8:25pm
okay. i get what youre saying. but i dont think its a "job". i told you that when you first told me you played it
like why does it cost you not to play? you lose money when you dont play? thats not the same thing as a job- you only make money in a job, you dont lose it
[You]
8:27pm
well let me say that its costing me when i dont play because im missing out on money i could be earning. its equivalent to like not showing up to work..
and it IS a job.
its something i do in order to make an income off of
is that not a job?
[Kaitlyn]
8:29pm
well then our not losing money. your just not making it. theres a big difference
i dont really see it as a job no...
[You]
8:30pm
not necessarily, the time i dont play i would be making money..so thats costing me money its called oppurtunity cost
how is it not a job though?
[Kaitlyn ]
8:33pm
because gambling isn't secure or dependable. you have to lose money in order to make money. with a job you have a guaranteed set income
[You]
8:34pm
babe...im shocked right now
[Kaitlyn]
8:35pm
why
[You]
8:38pm
first of all, forget everything youve ever been told or "taught" from your parents about gambling. DO NOT associate poker with any other form of gambling. because it is a complete OPPOSITE of every other gambling game out there.
[Kaitlyn]
8:40pm
how is poker not gambling then?
[You]
8:40pm
poker is gambling.
[Kaitlyn ]
8:40pm
huh?
[You]
8:40pm
but the difference with poker and all the other gambling games like black jack and things like that is:
[Kaitlyn ]
8:40pm
then what are you saying
[You]
8:40pm
poker is a game of SKILL
[Kaitlyn]
8:44pm
i dont really know what to say i dont wanna fight with you anymore
my only point was that in my opinion playing poker just doesnt seem like a job if more like a hobby or something that people would do to earn extra cash, but i know that its not that to you so i'm sorry
[You]
8:47pm
babe im so frustrated, but i WANT to talk about this
im not gunna leave this hangin over my head forever
poker is LEGALLY a game of skill like set in stone, people have done research and have Proved it to be a game of skill
so giving that, i have more skill in this game than the people who i play with.
therefore thats gauranteed money. how is it not?
[Kaitlyn ]
8:51pm
in the short term it isnt but i guess in the long term it is. but jake wheather its a skill or not its still gambling right?
[You]
8:53pm
why does it matter that it is gambling? and in regards to short term, it doesnt matter. I'm putting myself in profitable situations which DO show profit and i have PROVEN it to show profit. So the short term long term thign doesnt matter.
[Kaitlyn ]
8:53pm
okay i found this
No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.” Luke 16:13
now i know that this is referring to gambling
so i think that this is saying that you cant get too caught up in it or else it will be your "master". if you give playing poker the title of a job then that is worshiping it too much
in my opinion
[You]
8:57pm
babe
you are completely mis interpretting that
[Kaitlyn]
8:57pm
how
[You]
8:57pm
whats the difference if i were a pro baseball player or just worked in "the office" from 9-5
?
[Kaitlyn]
8:59pm
wait no how am i misinterpreting that verse
[You]
9:09pm
the verse is saying if you let money control you then you are not walking with god.
money isnt controlling me babe.

I posted the entire thing without editing it (except for last names).

Am i out of line at all? Please comment if you think so.

So where do i go from here? how can i explain to her that it is a reputable source of income with out her getting "afraid" like im some degen? Its the most frustrating thing in the world.

A means of income either pays the bills or it doesn't. This hobby/job distinction is of zero relevance.

What's probably bothering her is that certain people she has told about your hobby/job have disapproved, so now she has conflicting loyalties.

Thats exactly it. Right now the conversion is going towards "well its my opinion that its not gauranteed."

I dont want to leave it at that. i cant be with someone who feels shaky of my source of income or even remotly views me as a degen

You not playing a tournament is not the equivalent to not showing up for work. I imagine if you hadn't bailed on her then there wouldn't be this problem. If it really is necessary for you to play as an income source just decide when you are and aren't gonna play and set agreed times. Also, just starting a tourney and then having to miss out on plans because you run deep is just gonna piss her off and not help the relationship long or short term.

just show her your graph or maybe nanonoko's, to explain long run, winrate ROI or woteva?

make sure you don't miss apointments and stuff though that really sucks

btw i really hope for you that you're not in the US but I assume you aren't

There are a lot of jobs that don't guarantee income. Any commission job you are always risking making nothing in a month. I have spent the last 10 years not having a guaranteed income. But I don't know anyone that would consider it "not a job", and my family eats every month

thank you for this post. i might end up showing it to my gf. Could you elaborate on the "commision" tthing a little more? (in a way i could explain to my gf)

Just compare it to running a business. Sometimes you sell X in a week, sometimes Y, but it usually averages out to Z. Similar analogies are seasonal sales where if you were a fireworks shop you sell little in the summer, then a lot over winter holidays, then not much then another load in time for 4th July.

Variance in income is not related to whether it is a job or not. But its not a job, its closer to being self employed which is how i explain the years i played for a living.

Presumably this is a rare one off due not expecting people to go out and you arent blowing off appointments often, in which case whatever. If she cant realise your most profitable day is off limits for going to a party on no notice then you will struggle to make the relationship and game coexist in your life.

Again, going back to fireworks Sunday for a poker player is like the 4th of July or Dec 31st for a fireworks company. If she accepts that if you owned a fireworks shop you couldnt just close up shop on the busiest day of the year then she should better understand how most Sundays you cant just not play and assume you will make it up the day after.

That said avoid stuff like opportunity cost. It just muddies the water to try and explain it that way. Keep it simple. As for the bible quote it is unrelated to gambling or even to money. Its about striving to be more moral and spiritual and to place higher value in those over the physical things of our world. It is not saying to turn your back on money, only that money is a means to the goal and not the goal itself.

I sell exotic cars for a living. If I don't sell, I don't get paid. And can and does happen. In a job like this, similar to playing poker, you cannot look at what you make on any one month and base anything off of it. You have to look at the whole.

I would probably show her your stats for a year (assuming it looks good, lol). Show her the down months as well as the up months. In the end if you are making good money, don't stop.

Assuming you are a good solid player you are probably less prone to a major recession then I am. Two years ago the economy went to **** and my pay check went with it. Point is, there is no such thing as a guarantee.

The stock market might be a better example because sometimes they lose money instead of just not making any.



Stop using any poker money on her. Like if the check comes say hey i cant pay for your half because you find my money immoral and i wouldn't want to compromise your values.

Hmm...This may make sense, but I'm not sure I'd recommend it. (Call me a sexist chauvinist but I know very few women who would take this as a point well made.)

Yeah it would be bad.

A better why to make the point would be to point out all the things poker is paying for including dates. Sneak it in there between your food and books or something.

In the end though if she finds it immoral according to God...idk gl.

Two very important things:

1. Don't leave this without FULLY clearing every disagreement between you two and make sure she is 100% fine with you playing poker. I used to have a similar problem with my ex, who was always complaining I'm not spending enough time with her. And since poker was one of the things occupying my time (which she wasn't taking seriously), she didn't like me playing it at all. On the contrary, my current girlfriend fully supports me about playing poker and she very well views it as a good source of income and a legitimate job. FWIW, she even plays some freerolls every now and then, so she has some understanding of the nature of the game. This is important, since my dad was also a little worried when I first started playing poker for real money, but then he started playing himself and when he got familiar with the game, he stopped being worried. I think the best thing you can do is find a way to make her learn at least the basics of the game (the rules, as well as some fundamental counter-intuitive concepts like EV). This would definitely help. But again, don't leave this issue without resolving it, otherwise it will start affecting your game too (if it already isn't).

2. Having poker as a source of income gives you time flexibility that very few other jobs do. This means that even though you know you have to play on average X hours a day, you can often decide the best time for you. You did a good job pointing out that if you had a regular job you'd be spending the same time, but only because you can choose when to play and when not doesn't mean you can choose to play LESS than you would otherwise. Maybe give her a little better explanation, like "I need X amount of money a month, my hourly win rate is Y, therefore I have to play Z hours every month. If I play less than Z hours, X will go down".

Having said that, don't randomly register for long MTTs when you already have an appointment for the day and you know if you start doing well in the tournament you will have to miss the appointment. Think about it: you will only manage to be on time with your gf and your cousin if you get busted early in the tournament, but then you wouldn't make any money, so why bother playing? So, don't put yourself in situations where in order for you to make money you have to piss other people by not showing up on time. Only register for MTTs when you know you have the time to play until you reach the final table.

One more thing: I know you're Christian but I would tell your girlfriend to give actual reasons against playing poker, not some random bible verses. Those are not legitimate arguments for anything. If she persists in this, give her the following citation:

and then ask her why she still has more than one pair of shoes.

Were you a poker player when she met you?...then tough for her.
Was she a stripper when you met her?...if so, tough for you.
Don't get into a relationship and try to make changes to something you knew before you got into it imo.

OP you can tell her the fact that you're considering her objection means you're not fixated on the money. Only of course if that's really true. Everyone has to make an income and poker is like having a seasonal job. You have to take advantage of your peak income potential periods just like anyone else in business. Its just your seasons are less predictable.

It may be that she didn't get the attention she felt she deserved and that made her feel neglected only she might not realize it or admit to it. Just find another way to let her know she's appreciated.

Just from reading the convo, I also got that you seemed a lot more defensive than I was expecting based on the things she said. It's as if you've had such a debate before and were trying to preempt her arguments. That seemed to escalate the discussion past where it was otherwise going (though it's probably good to get there eventually anyway).

I think you handled the Bible verse fine. By her interpretation, no one should ever work for money, and that's clearly not right.

Finally, I hate the word 'babe.' Makes me think of 'The Office' (American version) where Jan and Michael have the dinner party and they are being very mean to each other but continue to use the word 'babe' to make it all sound nice (maybe it was just Jan).

As an mtt pro, you need to make sure your girlfriend understands from the start that on certain days you are not going to be able to guarantee time spent with her. You finishing early is a bonus for her, but she should know better than to expect it. It takes a certain type of girl who is willing to date an online poker player, and there's nothing wrong with deciding that poker is more important to you than her. So if she isn't going to be okay with your lifestyle then it's best to end the relationship sooner than later.

The fact that she is questioning your availability means either:

1. You haven't been clear about what she should expect from you,
2. She can't handle being with someone who is unavailable at times
3. You made a poor choice to play that day considering other opportunities

It seems like the issue isn't with whether poker is a job or not, but whether your GF is getting enough attention. Therefore a logical argument in favor of poker does not solve the issue in her mind. She needs emotional reassurance. Picking apart the bible quote also is irrelevant because she's using it as a tool to express her feelings, and showing that she's wrong won't make her feel better about the situation.

Decide whether this relationship can work, and if it can, you need to be more direct as to what her expectations of you should be. If she gets upset every time you are unavailable then I can't see the relationship working.

Rereading the convo makes it pretty clear that you messed up by choosing to play that Sunday when she expected to see you. That should never happen if you're playing responsibly. If you're going to do a job that already has a lot of negative baggage attached, you need to put some real effort in doing it right. I would apologize for making a bad decision in starting a tournament that day and promise to never start an mtt on a day that could possibly conflict with plans with her.

Has anybody ever counted up the 'Help me convince xxxxx that poker is not.......' on 2p2? At least this one comes w/ a twist: OP wants help convincing a (presumably) teenage religious Christian girl and you ppl actually think you can be of any help? Forget it, buddy. There is NO way.

btw: Nobody talks on the phone anymore? Eh, nm. If you want to fix this up the best you can OP, I'd at least sit down w/ her in person, ffs.

I got same problem too

All religious arguments aside...

[x] Poker is gambling.

Pick one:

[ ] Get a real job?
[ ] Find a new girl?

Those are seriously your choices. There is no "convincing" her. Professional Poker is a huge strain on a relationship, and not everyone can take it. The constantly putting things off, the attention sink, the bad months, the downswings, and so on, it's a lot to put a significant other through. So either you relegate Poker to hobby status and join the real world and have a real relationship, or you find a new girl who is fine with this arrangement. But if it bothers her now, there is very little chance there is going to be some "fix" that will make it not bother her anymore.

Sorry to be blunt, but those are the breaks.

At the end of the day I have to totally agree.

I disagree. You really can't generalize this. There're too many variables that come into play. Trying to communicate is always best in a relationship and why not test the lines of communication early. Anybody can assume and sever a relationship. Re-establishing after a misstep is a lot more problematical than communicating first.

Wow theres some really good content itt. I feel like alot of people go through what I am, but anyways: She's opened up her mind a little bit atleast, and wants to try and understand what poker is for me. Which is real great and going to take a lot of work to do. But overall she's mostly fine with it.

Lastly, the main reason for the argument was the fact that my friends were up and she just expected me not to play, mainly a lack of communication. But, "ganstaman" you just soul read me, everything you stated was pretty much EXACTLY what is going on...sick read haha

I'm not your friend, buddy!
I'm not your buddy, pal!