I don't understand how it's possible that "some evil, or the potentiality of evil, leads to more total goodness", especially given that god created everything and it was entirely up to him how much of anything exists. Why can't the greatest possible being, with the greatest values of the most desirable qualities simply have created the universe to be the same as he is in the first place?

Not surprising. Since you spent years bizarrely stalking mightyboosh, layering condescension and insults at him endlessly, it isn't remotely surprising that you were unable to refrain from slathering yet more insults on him in the brief period when he engaged with you, nor surprising you've gone back to your old habits of coming into threads - often ignoring everyone else - only to insult him some more despite him having you on ignore.

This is from the author of your reference; Herman Horne:

"Herman Horne was one of America’s most outstanding educational thinkers in his day. As a scholar, a philosopher, a gentleman, and a Christian, perhaps he was best known for his vigorous opposition to John Dewey and progressive education. While Dewey was one of the leading proponents of Instrumentalism, Horne was a leading representative of the Idealistic philosophy of education, a school of thought that dominated American philosophy from the mid-nineteenth century well into the twentieth century. Although idealism fell from favor in more recent times, it exercised a decided influence on American schools and the theory of education, and it continues to have moderate influence in religious education. Basically, idealism, as articulated by Horne, “holds to the centrality of the FREEDOM OF WILL, but it also recognizes that the individual is not an isolated entity; rather, the individual is a part of a larger whole” (Grimke & Howells, 1998, p. 503)."

I , of course, made the caps. He was a scholar and in his book I can only assume he presented he contraries with his inner comprehension, as above.

Here is the reference: http://www.talbot.edu/ce20/educators.../herman_horne/

Why would one think that I would have ever stopped? My trajectory is pretty consistent.

But your perception of me "often ignoring everyone else" is simply your desire to inflate your perception of me being a single-minded obsessively-driven person. The data clearly shows I continue to frequently engage with others.

Imagine you are choosing between two investments, one with a guaranteed return of 10%, the other with an expected return of 50%, but with some variance. Would you say a maximally perfect investor must always choose the one with no risk?

Ah, but an omnipotent investor would icreate her own investment vehicles, and so would instead create one with a 50% return and zero risk. Maybe...or maybe risk is a necessary part of any possible investment with the highest returns. At least, I don't see how to demonstrate logically that this isn't so. Similarly, I don't see how to demonstrate logically that the universe with the highest expected positive utility would also have no risk of evil or ill fortune in it.

As I said, I'm not surprised, your behavior - hilarious, bizarre, embarrassing - is certainly consistent. Your stalking of Mightyboosh has gone on for years. Your condescension and insults toward him have gone on for years. All while he has you on ignore. Hey man, get your kicks however you want, I guess. If consistently trying to insult somebody you find "useless" on the internet while they have you on ignore for what, a half decade?? is your thing then errrr I guess....have fun?

Consider this thread. Every single response by you was to someone who had you on ignore, or at least until I called you out on it.

Your recounting of things merely shows that you're not really in touch with reality. One might equivalently place your re-entering the conversation here to simply point out that I'm engaging with the words of MB as your own type of obsession.

Personally, I don't care whether you do or don't. But if you think I'm weird for doing it, perhaps you should consider yourself in the same light. His "uselessness" to me is reflected in the context of his comment towards me. If you don't understand what that means, it's not really my problem.

The amusing part is that this means you've literally not read the thread and have no idea what you're actually attempting to criticize. It's like you're just whining because it makes you feel superior in some way, not because you have an actual valid criticism at this point.

Feel free to point out where I'm not being accurate here:

• Mightyboosh has had you on ignore for years (except one brief period)
• Nonetheless, you consistently respond to Mightyboosh. My guess is you respond to him still more than any other person on the forum.
• Your post towards him have innumerable examples of condescension, insults, and disdain.
• In cases like this thread, you exclusively respond to Mightyboosh, not once quoting anyone else.

You can draw your own conclusions, but to me it is ****ing bizarre. There are many, many people on 2+2 who spend their days layering condescension on people they deem weak opponents. A little sad, but fair enough. But there is no one I've ever seen that does this - for years on end - to someone who doesn't ever respond. That's weird.

And just lol at trying to compare your strange obsession to my order of magnitude less frequent mocking you for this ridiculous behaviour. At least you respond.

But god is a maximal being, why does he need to invest? He has no need to turn what he has into more through a method like that, he can give himself as much as he wants straight away, this is the same problem I have with the idea of free will, god creates the conditions, he doesn't need to work the game, he is the game

Who cares ? Stay on point or get out.

Okay, but look how far you are from the logical problem of evil. Saying that a maximally perfect God doesn't need to create humans with free will doesn't mean that he can't or shouldn't.

The topic of divine freedom is not a trivial one for Christians, and there is a lot of disagreement, but it is certainly not heretical to claim that God is free, and I wouldn't want to hang my argument against theism on the claim that God isn't.

LOL. You remind me of the guy who compared California to the antebellum south because "both ignored the federal government." It's an "accurate" claim.

I will grant "accuracy" on points 1 and 3. Point 4 is just kind of stupid despite its accuracy. You mean the *FOUR* posts out of 150 or so posts that have happened in this conversation? Out of the 50ish posts that MB has made? You are clearly delusional about the level of obsession I have with MB.

Point 2 is really hard to see as "accurate" given that MB has taken significant leaves of absence from this forum whereas I've maintained participation. You don't recognize this because of your myopia on my posting towards MB.

So... whatever. Enjoy stalking me and making "accurate" claims about my posting. Your bewilderment is nothing of concern to me.

interesting topic. i'm going to grunch here.

i've often wondered the same thing..........

a 3rd option vs. the headline is that god is all powerful but doesn't interfere in all aspects of our living..

one thing i have never heard a person who loves religion say is this: when a child is brutally raped and left in a ditch to die alone and scare, i'll never heard a person say "well, that was god's plan for that child"

i guess they'd say the devil battles god in which case he isn't all-powerful.... or they say "some things are hard to explain". gee thx....

i am actually not negative on religion at all. i think it does alot of good in many different ways. some bad too of course.... but i don't like it when people who take god/jesus too literally. to me they are largely symbols and guides to live your live in a positive way.

i'm in AA..... we give ourselves over to a higher power. i said so if i committed a crime then i'm not morally responsible. they said, "no, you still have free will".... the contradiction doesn't bother me. again, the "higher power" is largely symbolic and/or mental to help you improve your life

Amazing. For years, you've take the utterly bizarre tack of regular and condescendingly attacking someone who has you on ignore. As hilariously pathetic as this behaviour undeniably is, your, uh, defense, such as it is, is to try and argue your level of obsession with Mightyboosh just isn't as high as I suggest? Lol. I neither need nor suggested you don't respond to others or respond to most of this individual posts so both your objections are utterly moot.

Some people have a habit of regularly attacking people, as you agree you do with him, with condescension, insults, and disdain. Sad, but not entirely uncommon. But you abandon even the pretense of pretending to have a conversation as you insult him. At least when you lob condescension, insults, and disdain at others, they can respond and you can pretend to be having a good faith conversation. In my view, the worst parts of internet forums are exactly when people choose to showboat their insults of others over an attempt at a genuine dialogue. Your seemingly unique behaviour towards him is an almost comically idealized version of this, stripping aside the basic social norms of forums and leaving you playing a bizarre game of one-upmanship with yourself. I can't make up my mind whether it is funny, or mainly just sad.

Thanks for the link, I'll read that and maybe I shouldn't post again until I have but if I applied that principle generally I'd never be able to post about anything.... I'm learning on the job, so to speak.

So, for now, I remain unsatisfied with a shoulder shrug 'we dunno' explanation for why god allows evil when other options, such as that god is neither omniscient nor all powerful, not all loving, or simply doesn't exist, all seem like far more reasonable explanations.

I've always assumed that he does it for others reading the thread, that he's actually playing to the gallery. What's the point of actually aiming that stuff at me, I can't see it, except for when people occasionally quote something and then I'm often struck at how different his tone is. Clearly he reserves his most scathing unpleasantness for those he thinks deserve it the most, of which I'm one.... Lucky me.

That doesn't resolve the apparent conflict that nothing can happen that he didn't know was going to happen, and allowed to happen. He's known since the moment of creation everything that will ever be, and as he is the perfect being, he got it all exactly right immediately, so it could never have been a different way. So what choice did you ever actually have? You did what god decided you would do.

I reserve it for those who deserve it. Mostly, it's for those whose writings come across as willfully ignorant. Your posts fit that category quite often.

This thread isn't the best example of this, as many people take an unsophisticated view of this argument (basically, take up your position), and have a hard time understanding the categories of thought required for its resolution.

You are really good at reading ironic humor and sarcasm. The best!

I wouldn’t take it too personally. Abuse isn’t the fault of the victim. You won’t have seen it, but of course he has already taken the opportunity to insult you more and blame your alleged failings for his endless insults to you. It’s sad. While it remains unclear what would drive him to stalk you for all these years with insults as you have him on ignore, I’m sorry that you have been the unwilling victim of that. I’d have preferred this forum was a safer space that prevented such a disgusting pattern against one of its core members, but it is sadly not the case.

LOL at trying to frame this as cyber-bullying. Cyber-bullying is real, but this isn't it unless you're going to the extreme end of the spectrum in which no negative comments are allowed.

I'm sorry your deductive skills are lacking.

I'm not sorry that this isn't a "safe space" for ignorance.

My four posts to MB in this thread. Totally bully here.

Since this is off-topic, further discussion of Aaron and his interactions with Mightyboosh will be moved to the random stuff thread.

That's more or less my own view, but nonetheless, the "we dunno" response still defeats the logical problem of evil. The logical problem of evil claims to provide a proof that an omnimax God doesn't exist, because some of the evil that exists in the world is inconsistent with such a God existing. If there is room for agnosticism on this point, then the proof fails. This of course still leaves open the debate about whether the balance of evidence, given the pointless suffering of some sentient beings, weighs in favor of an omnimax God existing.

Since Alvin Plantinga published his book "God, Freedom and Evil", I don't think that many philosophers today use the Logical Problem of Evil to refute the possibility of an omnimax God.