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Originally Posted by pulvis
I'm using the English language definition for subjective. The same definition all of English speakers are supposed to use. Subjective moral values are relative to the mind (by definition) of the person conceiving them. They may also, coincidentally, be in line with objective values, but this is just a coincidence. Moral values people come up with in their head do not have to be based purely on emotion. They can be based on rational thought, for example, utilitarianism. Utilitarianism can be completely relative to how one comes up the criteria.
Here's the problem with your view. Plausibly one way of understanding logic is that it describes the laws of thought. That is, moden ponens is a valid argument because it describes facts about the nature of thoughts and how they connect to other thoughts. In this sense, logic arises because people are thinking thoughts and so is subjective in this sense. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that logic is relative, because these laws of thoughts are (or at least can be claimed to be) universal to any thinking. It isn't
possible to validly think that if A then B, A, therefore not B. Thus, if there are limits on the possibility of thinking some kinds of thoughts, a subjective basis to x does not necessarily mean that x is relative.
This is basically the kind of argument that Kant used to argue for a universal morality on the basis of subjectivity. He claimed that in order to rationally will to do anything, you must act on the formulation of a maxim of action (to achieve x, do p) and that all such maxims have certain characteristic features of universality, publicity, etc, and that these features are the basis for moral claims. For example, there is no maxim of action that would justify lying (he claimed) because any such maxim would be self-defeating.
Now, it is fine of course to disagree with Kant. I do. But you'll have to do more than just say that it is self-evident that he is wrong. It doesn't even follow from him being wrong that his view is incoherent.
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Subjective yes, but universality certainly does not follow from rational thought..
Okay. Why not?
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There is nothing non-nonsensical about each person having their own belief about what is moral or not. What is non-nonsensical is for a person to decide someone else is immoral when they hold relative moral views.
You are simply repeating your original claim here. John claim that it is immoral to kill innocent people without a reason. Jack says that it is fine to kill innocent people without a reason. These claims are not congruent. A moral objectivist would claim that this shows that one of these claims is false, because what makes a moral claim true is that it somehow matches with some external standard of morality. Thus, it is incoherent on these grounds to claim that both John and Jack's claims are true.
However, a moral subjectivist needn't make this claim, since what makes a moral claim true on their account is if it matches with the subjective standards of a particular person or group of people - and it is possible that different persons or groups can have different and even conflicting standards. Thus, it is coherent to say that
both John and Jack's claims are true if moral relativism is correct.