If you place the call, you get whoever picks up on the other end.

This is a conclusion that I would disagree with them about, yes.

I always get "disconnected".

Care to elaborate?

Yes. Uke's is better because I would need them to tell me more about what they believe about "Allah" before I could proceed. I expect to disagree, but until I'm given a more explicit statement to evaluate, it's really unclear. (This is similar to Jewbison's FSM vs God question. What really is he saying when he says they're interchangeable in certain arguments?)

Do you believe Muslims receive salvation and experience a positive afterlife? Or eternal torment? All I'm asking is opinion. Not proof.

I believe Jesus is the son of God, they do not. We disagree.

If you're asking me to evaluate their reasoning, you'd first have to give me their reasoning. This is not an isolated piece of theology, but something that's tied up with huge chunks of it. So we would need to parse out the theology (which varies widely) and then see how the pieces fit together.

This isn't necessarily true, is it? Shouldn't you just be able to state, in no uncertain terms, why you believe Jesus to be the Son of God?

If by Muslim we mean someone whose beliefs include the rejection that God has provided the means of salvation through Jesus, then I believe they do not receive salvation.

What's not necessarily true now? I thought the example was something like "existence" and not having to do with Jesus being the Son of God.

I can state *that* I do, and I can explain various theological statements to as support for the claim, but "in no uncertain terms"? That sounds like something akin to formal proof, which would require me to know what first principles I'm allowed to work with.

How have you reached this conclusion?

Besides possible being cathartic I've never gotten answers or felt any results from talking to God. It's like, you know, nobody's there.

Is there any other type of muslim? I think we can speak in broad generalization like "muslims don't believe in christ" here....

The point seems to be this: Both muslims and christians widely report having experiences which they find to be important to their beliefs. All the muslims (incorrectly, in your view) use this to bolster views in claims such as jesus's divinity. The Christians use this to bolster a directly contrary claim about jesus's divinity. Of course, some christians may use faulty evaluations but arise at what you think is the correct conclusion by mistake.

This seems to me to be an exceedingly arrogant view in one of two possible ways. Either you think that all muslims are incorrectly deducing the veracity of the jesus statement but that most christians are correctly deducing that. This massive asymetry between billions of people that doesn't seem to have any other correlate ought to be justified. Or, you think you are one of very few christians who uses correct evaluations the rest just stumble on it by mistake in which case you don't have the muslim/christian divide, but it does elevate you to a pretty special place.

This. And not for lack of genuine trying, 0as a child raised in Christian house and going to a Christian private school, I might add.

I'd say read The Apologetics of Jesus then by Geisler and Zukeran. Though some people like Francis Collins were persuaded by C.S. Lewis.

The Apologetics of Jesus explains things from the evidentialist perspective.

The search for God is a lifelong process but reading the right people sends you closer and in the right direction.

God "refines" people and refining is a process that takes time....

No, I don't want to belong to some religion. What I want is hard to explain. One thing might be that I am trying to apply meaning to my life, where there is no meaning (Nihilism).

For all those enquiring on what I mean by "God", I refer you to this thread, made specifically to see what people believe "God" means, and whether God is subjective or objective. Looking back on it, the thread looks derailed:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...g-god-1110556/

Why don't Splendour and you religious guys post there what you perceive to be "God"? That would get this discussion going in the right direction I think.

I imagine I would be able to reply to this once we agree on what is meant by "God".

Btw, in this thread, I am referring to the Xtian God.

Do Xtians expect non-Xtians to not read the Bible/go to Church/ believe in God etc?

In which case, do you think we are going to hell if we don't try to convert, for example?

Don't you think God means to unite the subjective and the objective?

You start out believing and you end with doing with God.

Look at my Heraclitis quote that I posted today in jokerthief's Quote Thread.

I call BS. Where was I emotional?

And I am searching for God in a rational way afaik.

Moreover, being emotional and being rational are not mutually exclusive.

Bull. ****.

Are emotions such a bad thing?

Everyone on here treats them as such but isn't one of the ends of a perfect rationality government of the emotions?

Why do people run around trying to find paradise/perpetual happiness if emotions are a bad thing? Why do they do drugs if they don't find emotional pleasure in it?

Maaan, Splendour, your quote frustrates me. It is mighty vague. And it analyses/questions the meaning of the very thing it talks about to begin with (LOGOS)

It shouldn't frustrate you.

What does everyone spend all their time posting about on here?

They are posting mostly objective or subjective questions.

But Jesus Christ unites the subjective with the objective to generate right actions (behavior) by human beings.

Jibninjas said , suggesting that they are mutually exclusive, and it suggests to anyone reading that everything I am saying is based on confused thoughts.

At least, what he wrote in the quote above is the sort of thing I would write if I wanted to make OP look like a rambling idiot. But what he says, from my p.o.v., holds no water. It is clear that I am open to what people say and am not close minded. In fact, I have emphasized that at least twice in this thread. But then he simply states out of nowhere thta I am being emotional and irrational. What complete nonsense.

I see what you write but I don't understand it.

That which I don't understand I don't reject.

But jesus Christ tells us to not care what we think and to only care what he thinks.