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Fear of the other Fear of the other

09-09-2017 , 03:11 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...st-each-other/

Quote:
Evangelicals look down on atheists’ values. Nonreligious people fear that conservative Christians want to limit their freedoms. Republicans worry that Muslims pose a threat to their physical safety.

In short, many American identity groups are awfully concerned about one another. That’s the takeaway from a new survey, released Thursday morning by Baylor University, which polled Americans about their perceptions of their fellow citizens.

...

The study demonstrated that partisanship also has a strong effect when it comes to predicting peoples’ views on these topics, with Republicans offering more negative views of Muslims and atheists, and Democrats offering more negative views of conservative Christians.
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 11:34 AM
Seems like common sense. I love when studies set out to prove the obvious... what a waste of grant money.
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 11:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esspoker
Seems like common sense. I love when studies set out to prove the obvious... what a waste of grant money.
I think it's useful to have data to support "common sense" because if you search the phrase "common sense" in this forum, you'll find that lots of people have "common sense" that turns out to be completely wrong. And the problem spreads far beyond just this forum.

Ironically, I think that's just common sense.
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esspoker
Seems like common sense. I love when studies set out to prove the obvious... what a waste of grant money.
There is a "research revivew" (Lazarfeld's review WW2 studies in 1949) often cited in psychology where he gauges people's reactions to various historical facts about WW2 - one of these being that educated people suffered more adjustment problems to war than non-educated.

People would then respond as if it was as if this was very natural and obvious, noting for example in the above example that street-smarts more prepared you for fighting than book-smarts.

Then they're told the truth, that the statements were in fact false and the opposite were true. For example in the above example educated people were in in fact far more likely to adjust to the horrors of war. People hearing that for the first time will of course often say that this is obvious, educated people of course being more knowledgeable about the horrors ahead.

Later studies have found the effect to be pervasive, especially when it comes to social sciences. This probably in part because everyone is somewhat of an expert of human psyche and relations, making us trust our judgment and be less prone to skepticism. Now we call it "hindsight bias", looking at studies, evidence and research and immediately calling it completely obvious or common sense.

And of course we shouldn't forget that many "obvious truths" have been dispelled by social studies, that this is not always the case hardly warrants calling something "a waste of money". In fact, that kind of thinking is often outright dangerous.

Last edited by tame_deuces; 09-11-2017 at 04:45 PM.
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
There is a "research revivew" (Lazarfeld's review WW2 studies in 1949) often cited in psychology where he gauges people's reactions to various historical facts about WW2 - one of these being that educated people suffered more adjustment problems to war than non-educated.

People would then respond as if it was as if this was very natural and obvious, noting for example in the above example that street-smarts more prepared you for fighting than book-smarts.

Then they're told the truth, that the statements were in fact false and the opposite were true. For example in the above example educated people were in in fact far more likely to adjust to the horrors of war. People hearing that for the first time will of course often say that this is obvious, educated people of course being more knowledgeable about the horrors ahead.

Later studies have found the effect to be pervasive, especially when it comes to social sciences. This probably in part because everyone is somewhat of an expert of human psyche and relations, making us trust our judgment and be less prone to skepticism. Now we call it "hindsight bias", looking at studies, evidence and research and immediately calling it completely obvious or common sense.

And of course we shouldn't forget that many "obvious truths" have been dispelled by social studies, that this is not always the case hardly warrants calling something "a waste of money". In fact, that kind of thinking is often outright dangerous.

I think Schopenhauer's quote rings true:

Quote:
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
I'll retrace my steps a little. It's not common sense, at least in practice. The majority of people (if evidenced by polls and the media) are partisan, and incapable of seeing two sides of an issue. It might be a rare thing for a person to step back and see truth on two sides of an issue. Therefore it may be rare for people to even realize how biased they are, especially while they are holding one viewpoint (most people can't hold two opposing viewpoints simultaneously).

Still I think that for a liberally educated person, this is common sense. Certainly many thinkers have thought this before and spoken at length about it. I think there's a kind of myopic reliance on studies in our scientistic climate. It is maybe healthier to exercise personal judgement and common sense rather than rely on studies, which are really proven and disproven at the same rate as our common sense.

It probably all boils down to an innate preference. Some people trust studies (S's in myers briggs) and others trust their intuition (N's).


As for whether my kind of thinking is outright dangerous as you say...I think it's dangerous to leave thinking up to the "experts" and make knowledge into something that is out there, spliced off into segments in labratories. There really should be more people exercising their common sense, in order to make it better and more accurate. Relying on outside date to make decisions leaves you a slave to the newest advancements in science, which are always replacing the old, always changing.

I was reading somewhere or heard something recently, can't remember, about a thinker who predicted that in the future all philosophers and thinkers would be segmented off into individual fields, and the days of the well-rounded thinker are gone. It is definitely true and I think that is frightening.
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esspoker
I think Schopenhauer's quote rings true:
I'm interested in seeing you recount the history of the particular truth that you think was at one point ridiculed and then violently opposed.

Quote:
It probably all boils down to an innate preference. Some people trust studies (S's in myers briggs) and others trust their intuition (N's).
Trying to pin this on Myers-Briggs makes your position seem that much less believable. Truth is not subject to innate preferences.
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 07:32 PM
Regarding the OP, there is a lot of theories on "echo-chambers".

Meaning that since we access to information of any kind, people tend to stick to the information that affirms rather than challenges their belief.

Interestingly, as has been noted by some Pew Pew research work, this trend may not stem as much from people refusing opposing viewpoints, as it does from people avoiding conflict. For example a democrat might not seek out republican viewpoints or vice versa because of the conflict that might ensue. That's an evil circle right there; first we divide into sides, then we avoid the other side because the conflict bothers us.

That trend is probably not that applicable to forum participants, many of whom I suspect enjoy a decent quarrel.

There is a related TED-talk on this that I have linked before on this forum, but it is one of my favorite TED talks of all time: A former Westboro Baptist Church member on why she left
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
I'm interested in seeing you recount the history of the particular truth that you think was at one point ridiculed and then violently opposed.



Trying to pin this on Myers-Briggs makes your position seem that much less believable. Truth is not subject to innate preferences.

That's a Schopenhauer quote, and I would say that the theory of Evolution is a good example. So was Copernicus's theory. I'm not your monkey and I won't recount a history for you, but google would do.

And I didn't know you were the authority on truth. It seems like you're proving my point.
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esspoker
That's a Schopenhauer quote, and I would say that the theory of Evolution is a good example. So was Copernicus's theory. I'm not your monkey and I won't recount a history for you, but google would do.
LOL -- So you can't even link the quote to the thing actually being discussed and what you're calling "common sense"? Awesome.

Quote:
And I didn't know you were the authority on truth. It seems like you're proving my point.
Or perhaps you're proving mine. That you can't even raise an intellectual objection speaks volumes about your "common sense."
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 07:55 PM
I finally took the time to hunt down the original. (It wasn't complicated. I was just being lazy.)

http://www.baylor.edu/baylorreligion...php/292546.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
Regarding the OP, there is a lot of theories on "echo-chambers".

Meaning that since we access to information of any kind, people tend to stick to the information that affirms rather than challenges their belief.
It's not just that these types of lines are being drawn, but the specific ways that they're being drawn. For example, Evangelical Christians think that Conservative Christians "want to limit the personal freedoms of people like me" even though many Evangelical Christians are considered (and consider themselves to be) conservative Christians. Also, even though Muslims are more generally feared, atheists tend to be seen as having the inferior values.
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 10:45 PM
[QUOTE=Aaron W.;52830698]LOL -- So you can't even link the quote to the thing actually being discussed and what you're calling "common sense"? Awesome.

I was using it to paraphrase TD
Fear of the other Quote
09-11-2017 , 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by esspoker
I was using it to paraphrase TD
Interesting. From what I can tell, it's not a paraphrase at all.
Fear of the other Quote

      
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