Calling this "reasonable" is an interesting concept. A religious ministry is statesanctioned to be able to religiously bind 76% of the populace to verdicts that are not governed by checks and balances. In addition leaving the religion carries a sentence of up to 3 years in prison and public flogging, this also under a secondary court system with no checks and balances. Not to mention that protesting this regime is blasphemy and is also illegal.

To cling to the notion that this is "reasonable" because one might conceivably construct a logic argument that is valid... Well, words aren't enough.

But yeah, if course it is vacuous to protest, since I am forbidden to buy nuclear weapons I am treated pretty much identically.

I feel the same way but aren't you only saying this because you're not a Muslim? If you were, and had given yourself over to Allah and given up your right to personal, contrary opinions, and accepted Islam as an unquestionable authority in your life, then wouldn't this Fatwa/prohibition be reasonable in that subjective context?

That you don't believe in Allah, and aren't Muslim, doesn't make them wrong?

There is nothing in my post that couldn't be said by a Muslim.

Sure they 'could' say it, but why would they if they believe in Allah and the unquestioned authority of the Qur'an? Isn't your objection to the use of the word 'reasonable' subjective because you're not a believer? If they want to subject themselves to this control, then it's not unreasonable when it's exerted over them.

Tame.

Lolwut?!?!

That is the most laughably bizarre interpretation of one of my posts I've seen since Splendour was banned.

I don't expect anyone else is going to have made so many zany re-interpretations as you've made here so - particularly given that I'm posting from phone today - I'll leave it to you to go back, read my post properly and make the necessary retractions.

OK. That isn't exactly what I'm addressing though. You claimed (not direct quote cos it's a palaver on my phone) "islam suppresses free choice..all I need to do to prove this is show one example..and the mars thing is one such example". I claim this Mars example makes your argument vacuous. It's like proving that religion causes harm by pointing out Uncle Bobs knee pain from years of kneeling to pray.

I strongly suggest thinking your thread OPs through more before posting them, rather than after.

I don't know what you are asking for here

Well I disagree. This content of this particular fatwa seems reasonable to the point of benevolence. And before tamedeuces gets his knickers in a twist again...that is not to be taken as a claim that fatwa as a concept is reasonable or benevolent.

Harder != hard.

Is there a fatwa against all future terrorist suicide missions as well?

Imagine if for example every day in the news there was a new fatwa by a different set of scholars in a different country against any attack that kills innocent civilians anywhere and every time the western forces/allies/US/Israelis whatever anywhere in the world killed civilians and called it collateral damages a statement telling them shame on you for not being diplomatic enough or against legitimate criminals accurate enough or not caring enough and then the same day a new fatwa against any future terrorist attack on people by muslims. Yes imagine that for a change. Imagine the power of it!

Imagine the beauty of telling the western leaders shame on you each time and instantaneously forbidding muslims from engaging in attacking civilians anywhere in the world with the same enthusiastic cordial attitude (not debating though the merit of attacking military and other industrial interest targets, that's a separate issue that is part of a more appropriate war, if there is such thing of course as appropriate/just war in the face of injustices and other crimes). Yeah then maybe it would be a religion of peace. Maybe it would be the golden age again. But...i guess its too much to ask this. So instead we get ridiculous nothing better to do scholars issuing fatwas against research missions. Brilliant!

Masque, do tell what Arabic language newspapers you've been monitoring to know that Muslims, via fatwas or otherwise, do not consistently condemn terrorism.

Fact is, Muslims are the most frequent victims of terrorist attacks and have been vociferous in condemning them, and have the most troops engaged in combating them, and your comment is bigoted and ignorant.

Have you ever tried asking questions that are not loaded?

Oh really? The burden of proof is on me suddenly to examine all published literature and events in history and not in the common sense and typical experience we all share? All we have to do is look for the same news we read every day. In them we will absolutely fail to find any fatwa like the one i described produced with the same kind of seriousness and attention (it would make the news every day if so) as in that Mars joke of a story. Some rare occasional clerics here and there (like the rare example you provided which i salute anyway) dont exactly build the case i was making for a more serious multiple personalities united cultural front. By all means give me a list of all recent ones that would be characterized at fatwas resulting from top leadership against attacks on civilians. I am looking for a systematic coordinated permanent effort that would eclipse all the extremist clerics around making the news constantly. I would love to see that in (from the country itself not those living overseas in the West having limited influence where it matters) Pakistan for example or Iran. How about Indonesia?

All we see in the news is extreme clerics urging attacks and every now and then a few others urging peace in some general terms (unless they are peaceful authors etc who themselves often become fatwa targets later) but i have somehow failed to notice a collection of high esteemed scholars and religious top leaders that meticulously treat the attacks as an issue of such severe religious importance that deserves a major frequent declaration in the most serious, unforgiving tone of condemnation as of utmost unethical nature.

No, that would be boring.

Where's the unjustified assumption in my question? I simply gave you an alternative to your statement :

Which is that a Islamic believer might consider it perfectly reasonable, because they believe. Whatever, you weren't even talking to me, I'll let you and Zumby have at it.

And I answered: There is nothing in my post that a Muslim couldn't say or agree with.

What you are doing is trying to force to me to answer this: "But what if a Muslim who disagrees with you disagrees with you?" while pretending to ask this: "But what if a Muslim disagrees with you?"

Do you accept that what you see as unreasonable might seem reasonable to other people?

That's all I'm saying, except to go one small step further and suggest who those people might be that might find it reasonable.

Your questions were so loaded that I'm not even going to bother trying to dissect them.

If you wanted to ask me if what I see as unreasonable might be unreasonable to other people, then ask that. Don't pile on a load of goo about Muslims who don't question anything.

It wasn't a question.

I'm not accepting that when what you said was 'it becomes a whole lot easier to work out which way to face Mecca when in space'. Since the first thing you'd have to do is locate the Earth where ever it happens to be on it's 583 Million mile orbit, working in 3 dimensions instead of 2, instead of just facing a compass direction that you already know, I seriously doubt that it would be 'easier'.

Whatever, you'll probably be able to get an App for it. Maybe they can build it into their prayer mats or their copy of the Qur'an.

I see no difference between the post you're replying to here and the first reply I made to you but I think that's enough of this going in circles don't you? You think it was loaded, I don't, The end.

You asked me if I just found something unreasonable just because I didn't belong to a hypothetical group of people who under no circumstance could possibly find it unreasonable.

That is a pointless question.

To make it worse, you tried to make it sound like you asked if I just meant what I said because I am not a Muslim. That makes it a very bad question.

Would you then say these rank and file muslims were being taught by Islam?

Does it work in reverse also? If Muslims want to know if Americans denounce terrorism, should they read reports in Arabic from Cairo?

You are the one who claimed Muslims do not protest violence. So yes, meeting that burden of proof would mean a survey of representative Islamic media.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant when I asked if you follow any Arabic newspapers.

Care to opine on whether Italians ever object to pedophilia by Catholic priests?

Bill Haywood its real simple. Yes one should search all news but international major news pick up on local news like that suggested if they are genuine long scale efforts. Freedom of information and self criticism is a core principle of western societies that definitely enjoy more freedom of expression and would happily broadcast such large scale initiatives to essentially protect Muslims and their culture from the cancer of modern extremism.

I am only asking to see a very well defined global effort by the top religious leadership of all Islam to attack their religious extremist clerics, to isolate them and even shun them openly and without fear. Instead we see only rare sporadic efforts by those that are abroad and in a position that cannot be dangerous or effective where it matters. How about taking that stand from inside Pakistan for example. Or what is the top Iranian leadership doing? Where are they to make the headlines every day and inspire the world.

Do not see my post as a pro Western (yes my values are predominantly western but i remain self critical) or pro Christian or whatever anti Islam camp you want to imagine. I come from a position of science that cares to see people show some love for each other and avoid the hypocrisy. It should have been obvious from my original post that was critical of the western strikes on Muslims even though it remains true that more Muslims kill other Muslims than westerners do. The genuine decent people in the west are equally critical of the Catholic church or their military leadership etc.

I took the opportunity of this thread to show that there is a ton more important chances for Fatwas available than the rather idiotic Mars news. Far more important issues exist and in the end the very Mars Fatwa is idiotic and wrong in fact because it fails to recognize the enormous technological and social benefits such projects carry as byproducts of the hard problems they are forced to solve. So ultimately if Islam was progressive enough it would be embracing such efforts not issuing Fatwas against them or spending their time doing more creative searches within their own societies.

You haven't shown evidence of following even one English language source from the Islamic world, much less knowing Arabic, so you don't know a thing about what Muslims think. You should consider whether the western media should cover something besides the Mars fatwa. Maybe it's not a representative story.

Boosh I support your freedom of speech to be critical of religion. I find great issue with some of your pro Christian posts though, in the sense that if you are a anti religious person then why did you recently create a thread in which you suggest the view that Christainty could be a line of defense against Islam?



I'm on vacation so I may not be back for a bit , I had to type this on a I pad thing which was Brutal

Mb , you have on numerous occasions stated your view in some fashion that Islam is a bad belief system, In your view is Judaism a bad belief system ? I'm not asking about other religions, I'm asking about Judaism and furthermore what are your views on Jews who follow the Torah and are bound by it . This last point is not a a question I would ask anyone but I'm attempting to ask you this question based on your views of religion

Maybe you ought to visit the Middle East , Lebanon , gcc states.these are amazing countries with great people

Those events that have impact are nicely covered internationally always. No need to hide behind simplistic details like actually knowing a language or reading local papers etc. I have no doubt decent people exist everywhere. I am only talking about the big top names, those most influential clerics. Yes to know a culture you need to study it closely. But this is not what is at question here. You conveniently want to make it though in order to deviate from the topic.

The topic is number one the Mars Missions Fatwa is simplistic and poor and wrong in principle given the good intentions of such missions and the broad benefit for mankind that ultimately saves lives through the side product/technology benefits/breakthroughs even if some rarely become victims because of initial failures or errors (which we have no evidence for yet). Those are the true heroes by the way and should be praised not condemned.

Furthermore i maintain my initial caustic position because indeed as i described it such Fatwas are spectacularly missing from the true core Islam (the real big countries where this would make a difference and open dialogue).

Here is a list of Fatwas that were recorded recently. My point is well made. Only light (not broad enough in their design/origin etc even if individually strong and decent) versions of condemnations from people living generally in western locations can be found. How convenient there of course for obvious reasons that have to do with the efforts to improve local relationships. The rest, the real big names stay conveniently very very silent and spectacularly so even in WW2 cooperating with the Nazis (not to worry certain elements of Catholic church didnt handle WW2 very well either). I salute of course all those that dont and they are many as well. But why do you fail to catch my point? I am seeking the significant activity that would pass for a global uniform movement against terrorism and make it a collective strong effort to teach the youth to find other ways of protest, to make them feel proud about their true heritage and recognize how above such petty behavior they should be. The real shame is that although you have many extremist clerics all over the world there is not enough effort to collectively shun them for their behavior. There is a severe imbalance in terms of the opposition to the extremists. It is not strong enough in my opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatwas