Where can you go that you are not in the presence of the omnipresent God, the All in all? As a Christian, do you not have the Holy Spirit, the kingdom of God and Christ in you? Are you not then in God's presence now (as opposed to in heaven after you die)? Doesn't the most famous psalm of the bible say:

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me

Yes, it does. Your posts are expressing your misunderstanding.

Of course. Jesus takes away the sins of Christians so that we can be in the presence of God.

Yes, this is your religious theology speaking. Try to set it aside and hear what is being said. Here's some pre-Jesus wisdom on the omnipresence of the One True God.

Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.
Psalm 139

I am with thee always
I will never leave you or forsake you

Again, where can anyone go that they are not in the presence of the Omnipresent One?

Hey, t_roy, no comeback on my post? I am dissapoint

You said

God cannot allow himself to be in the presence of a sinner.

but God is everywhere, he is omnipresent according to the bible.
And sinners are everywhere, there is no-one on earth now who is not a sinner, according to the bible.

So Either

your statement, god cannot allow himself to be in the presence of a sinner, is false

Or the statement, God is omnipresent is false

Do you see that your stance contradicts the bible?

I said this was difficult to explain because I knew this issue would arise with my chosen wording. I don't know how else to say it though. There is a difference between God being everywhere and us literally being before God. For instance in Old Testament times, God resided in the tabernacle. Only yearly was a priest allowed into his presence and even then he was not allowed to look upon God. It was in essence, a physical manifestation of God. As I said, I will try to find a better worded explanation.

yes, but you still havent responded to the post in this link

Lets do a thought experiment. Let's assume that sin is absolutely despicable to God. Let's also assume that he deeply loves us. Both are beyond our human capacity to understand. However, since we were made in the image of God we can at least understand a glimpse of His nature in ourselves.


Let's imagine that you are the one that decides who goes to heaven and who goes to hell. You have a brother who you love very much. When you are about to send him to heaven, you learn that unbeknownst to you, he was actually a serial child molester. He never showed any remorse for his actions and did not at all care about how his actions deeply affected other people. Can you possibly justify allowing him to live in absolute bliss for all eternity after all the evil that he committed? There must be a payment for his actions. He can not possibly pay for these atrocities himself.

The only way for him to go to heaven is for you to endure tremendous suffering on his behalf even though you are totally innocent and are entitled to pure bliss for all eternity. Now you might not do this for a child molester, but God loves us so much that he would. All the sinner must do is repent and turn to God. God is even more appalled by our sin than we are appalled by a child molester. Our sin must be payed for with blood.

at least give me a couple days before giving me grief. I'm not a full time forum poster ya know.

you said "... he was actually a serial child molester. He never showed any remorse for his actions and did not at all care about how his actions deeply affected other people. Can you possibly justify allowing him to live in absolute bliss for all eternity after all the evil that he committed? There must be a payment for his actions. He can not possibly pay for these atrocities himself.

The only way for him to go to heaven is for you to endure tremendous suffering on his behalf even though you are totally innocent and are entitled to pure bliss for all eternity. Now you might not do this for a child molester, but God loves us so much that he would."

My response to this is that serial child molesters don't deserve eternal bliss regardless of who suffers for them. This is, pardon my language, possibly the most ****ed up system of justice I've ever heard of. Why not hang a two year old every time someone rapes and kills someone else. That makes it all even-Steven right?

I just want to understand you correctly sir, if you'll be so kind as to answer me, if someone is evil, say a child-molesting Hitler type, if he decides in his last minute of life that Jesus is his savior, an repents, he will gain eternal bliss, as opposed to the average joe that just don't know?
That god, my dear sir, can **** off in his heaven. I'll take the alternative, whatever that may be.

There is some debate as to what will happen to "the average joe that just don't know." I'm not totally sure either way but yes, the child molester would be saved. Keep in mind that we are God's creation and it is incredibly loving for him to suffer for us. God loves us so much that he was willing to pay for our sin. Keep in mind that our sin is just as objectionable to God as the child molester's sin is objectionable to us.

The point, t-roy, is that religion teaches us that God made man and the system that we live under. He wasn't forced to make the system the way it is. He had billions and billions of options.

Yet, religion teaches us that God chose to make a system where man lives about 65 years, will always become a "sinner" separate from God, and will always burn in hell for eternity unless he does something to appease God and get back on His good side.

This is a story. Which people "believe". It is theology. It is not how things are.

It is based upon a fundamental error: that man is separate from the One True God. Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within each of us. And it has been so since you were born. There's never been a day that you were apart from the One True God.

The very thing that makes it possible for you to say, I am alive, is the Life that is Source. The very thing that enables you to love another, is the Love that is the Father. No, friend, you have never been and will never be, nor can you be, separate from the Omnipresent One.

And any theology built upon this fundamental error is exponential error.

I was really looking forward to an explanation from someone other than Splendour on some of these issues, but t-roy, these are terrible.

Ok, as for the "God cannot allow a sinful person into his presence." thing. I used that wording because that is how I have heard it explained in the past. I got myself confused a bit but, I believe it should have been worded, "God cannot have a personal relationship with a sinful person because he cannot pardon sin that has not been payed for." Hence, a Christian can have a personal relationship with God because they no longer have sin. A non believer is incapable of having a personal relationship with God. Therefore a non believer can not have a personal connection with God in the after life and must be separated from God.



5cent, if you care to expand, I will be glad to address any concerns.

t-roy - that to me was a better explanation of what you meant (but obviously did not say the first time.)

No need to explain anything else, Im done trying to understand Christianity here. After reading the conceited, evasive answers of so called Christians in this forum (not implying yourself) I've decided not to waste my time here anymore.

Anyone that sees me even reading this RGT forum send me a PM and I'll send you $10 on Stars (non us players only)

None of this answers my post.

God created us, and created us with the ability to sin
He knows that every single one of us WILL sin
He created Hell as punishment for sin

Does that sound like a good and fair system to you?

Plus your thought experiment sucks, the only way it holds together is to assume your premises are true, so all you are doing is proving that if your assumptions are true, then they are true. Pointless

Yes, it does if you want an eternal relationship with someone who isn't a puppet.

God doesn't need a relationship with people but he could have wanted one.

Both of Jesus Christ's commandments are relational in nature.

Philosophy and unbelief tend to neutralize and dumb down the personalness of God by relying on the physical sense of sight and other concepts and by distilling everything down to forms that negate His personal interest in His own creation as if He didn't exist .

The One True God is not a person. To speak of personal relationship, personalness of God or personal interest is to miss the mark.

The Father is not a person who we relate with through our person (our persona, our self). There is no Person there for our persona to have a personal relationship with!

No, we form connection with the I AM through our I am (our being, our awareness).

And there is no person on our side either to have a personal relationship either.


Wouldnt you say instead, that you dont form a connection( which implies two entities joined by something), but rather there is no way in which you are not already connected?

Yes, you're right. It does imply an initial separation and a coming together. How would you say it better?

Maybe, we relate with the I AM through our I am (our being, our awareness).

Or, we realize our gestalt with the I AM by our I am (our being, our awareness).

If there is no entity on either side, then you cant form, relate or realise anything. Its all just concepts anyway.

You need to stop trying to be mediator in place of Jesus Christ, aj.

You don't have seniority over Jesus Christ.

In John 3, Jesus Christ says 3 times "you must be born again". If that wasn't significant he wouldn't have said it 3 times.

This is your perception of my post. I assure you that that is not what is there.

You are seeing what your mind has projected, not what is.

I don't read all your posts but you seem to be giving a New Age spin to things. When you say God can't be personally involved with people then how do you explain his interactions with Moses, the prophets, etc.

Most people say God is a spirit based on scripture. But even some missionaries say God has a body or is a person though I would put them in the minority.

Many times God is credited with eyes, ears, hands, and even a perfect mind in the Message Version of the bible.

But if you ask me I wouldn't claim final authoritative knowledge on this. Imo nothing is impossible with God and he could change forms at will.

We tend to act over authoritative based on scriptures at times. If we have a single passage vindicating our point of view then our interpretation is final. But that doesn't mean we're right.

I would never take consciousness as the road to God over faith in Jesus Christ. I will always go to the bible source first before following a new age guru's interpretation. Imagine thinking Eckhart Tolle knows God's ways better than Jesus. I just don't buy it and never will.

God is the potter not Eckhart Tolle. Trust God before you trust a fallible man.

What if God has a unique purpose for you and Tolle makes you miss it or go on a detour?