Explain Ephesians 2:8 please, Christians.... - Religion, God, and Theology

We all understand what faith means right? And what a gift means? Right? This verse is not saying God chooses those who have faith in him. It is saying that he grants faith in him, and that you have no ability on your own to have faith in him.

Do you not understand that this verse means that you have no free will to choose Jesus? That only God grants that? And that your current faith is utterly useless because it may not be the "genuine" kind (as the verse states) given by God? That your faith can be false faith? That you could be a false Christian? And that all non Christians are as such just because God didn't grant them the "gift of faith"? And that you could well be in the same boat and not even know it?

Where is the loving, supremely moral God with whom your faith in is paramount? If I were a Christian, I would be horrified at how inconsequential my faith in Christ is according to this verse right out of New Testament.

By the way, I haven't been able to locate the exact version of the Bible for which that wording for the verse comes from. Would love it if anyone knows! But I did look at several different versions and they all used the term "gift of faith". So the meaning would seem consistent across most versions of the Bible.

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01-16-2012 , 12:30 PM

kb coolman

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,452

Yeah...that version is pretty jacked up, IMO, and this is a non-issue. Let's go a more standard route:

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Eph 2:8-9 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation by grace, through faith is the gift. It's not the faith that is from God, it's the grace.

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01-16-2012 , 12:45 PM

ajmargarine

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I can give you 12 versions of the verse. (In the blue letter bible online, when you click the V to the left of a verse and it will give you the dozen versions).

http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible...c=2&v=1#vrsn/8

This is a gift I give to you, already there, all you have to do is click the link.

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01-16-2012 , 01:09 PM

Hack4444

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 225

Before I click, do I have to have faith that the link will work, and once there, will I need to continue in the faith to read and understand the true meaning of the words?

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01-16-2012 , 11:46 PM

festeringZit

old hand

Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,442

Quote:

Originally Posted by kb coolman

Yeah...that version is pretty jacked up, IMO, and this is a non-issue. Let's go a more standard route:

Salvation by grace, through faith is the gift. It's not the faith that is from God, it's the grace.

Theologians argue about this one. Augustine, Calvin, Luther and
the Reformers would say that faith is a gift. Arminians tend to
believe otherwise. Personally, I think Scripture is clear, faith is
a gift of God.

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01-17-2012 , 02:12 AM

Turn Prophet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by festeringZit

Guess some of us are just SOL then, eh?

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01-17-2012 , 05:23 AM

Gunth0807

Wears Hoodies in Pizza Joints

Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 9,249

Correct. Salvation is a gift from God, received thru faith. There are requirements to faith, such as believing, repentance, submitting, and overcoming. But doing what is required doesn't automatically qualify you because it is God's decision and He judges the heart. So yeah, while acts are part of what is required, you will not achieve with acts, only God.

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01-17-2012 , 08:45 AM

kb coolman

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,452

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunth0807

Eph 2:8-9 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.*

* some works required.

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01-17-2012 , 09:45 AM

neeeel

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,731

Quote:

Originally Posted by festeringZit

I am wondering why he gave you the gift of faith, and not me then? Whats so special about you?

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01-17-2012 , 11:25 AM

#10

Splendour

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Quote:

Originally Posted by neeeel

I am wondering why he gave you the gift of faith, and not me then? Whats so special about you?

You don't compare notes like that. Are you identical to him? Do you know God's will and purpose for his life? Or yours?

What does murmuring and complaining get you?

That's the type of thing you take to God in prayer. People ask God to show them His will and purpose for their lives.

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01-17-2012 , 01:17 PM

#11

Splendour

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How can I know God's will for my life? What does the Bible say about knowing God's will?
http://www.gotquestions.org/know-God-will.html

“Delight yourself in the LORD and He will give you the desires of your heart” (Psalm 37:4).

God delighted in people first when He declared His creations good. The name "Eden" means "delight".

Meaning and etymology of the Hebrew name Eden:
http://www.abarim-publications.com/Meaning/Eden.html

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01-17-2012 , 01:22 PM

#12

ajmargarine

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So Splendour, is it God's will for you to post in RGT?

edit: Yes/No/I don't know will suffice

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01-17-2012 , 05:43 PM

#13

Splendour

banned

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 18,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by ajmargarine

So Splendour, is it God's will for you to post in RGT?

edit: Yes/No/I don't know will suffice

Do all Christians have a responsibility to advance the Gospel?

If they do then that's your answer.

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01-18-2012 , 12:31 PM

#14

neeeel

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,731

Quote:

Originally Posted by neeeel

I am wondering why he gave you the gift of faith, and not me then? Whats so special about you?

Still waiting on an answer for this.

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01-18-2012 , 01:44 PM

#15

Hack4444

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 225

Quote:

Originally Posted by neeeel

Still waiting on an answer for this.

Let me play the righteous, condescending, enlightened one and answer that for you neeeel -

You see, my misguided friend, faith is like a book god gives to each of us, but it is our god-given free will as to whether or not we choose to open and read and understand that book, or to ignore and keep it hidden in the dark library of our heart.

How'd I do Splend? You can use that if you want.

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01-18-2012 , 03:58 PM

#16

kb coolman

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 5,452

Not bad, but missing key components:

1) No links.
2) Post is specifically on topic and concise.
3) No 'atheist=little baby'

Overall, C-. You can do better next time.

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01-18-2012 , 11:39 PM

#17

CompleteDegen

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Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,480

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

But, I have. Therefore I can only conclude that God's plan for me does not include becoming a Christian.

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01-19-2012 , 12:03 AM

#18

Splendour

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Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 18,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by CompleteDegen

But, I have. Therefore I can only conclude that God's plan for me does not include becoming a Christian.

I don't jump to conclusions on this type of topic. I research it as best I can.

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01-19-2012 , 01:56 PM

#19

CompleteDegen

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

I don't jump to conclusions on this type of topic. I research it as best I can.

What type of topic? You said we were to ask God in prayer his plan for us, etc. I've done so and God's presence was nowhere. What else can I conclude other than he does not intend for me to be a Christian?

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01-20-2012 , 11:24 PM

#20

Splendour

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Quote:

Originally Posted by CompleteDegen

I think there's an alternate answer about this from God's perspective.

Humans sometimes look at things too narrowly from their own perspective and forget that He has a say in these things, too and His timing and purposes are hard to grasp sometimes.

Apologetics won't even address topics like this very well because these types of topics are usually addressed by devotional writers like an Oswald Chambers or A.W. Tozer or someone similar because they concern the people devoted to God. It's an esoteric topic. A skeptic won't even begin to understand it. He will dismiss it outright without consideration and he'll tell you you're irrational to consider it too.

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01-21-2012 , 03:09 AM

#21

Janabis

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,753

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

All you're doing is dismissing his experience with the old "God works in mysterious ways" routine. There's nothing esoteric or difficult to understand about your response. It's the oldest and laziest explanation in the book.

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01-22-2012 , 12:23 AM

#22

soontobepro

adept

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 767

I see a lot of things which I'd like to respond to...

But first, I have a question.

What is the difference between "belief" and "faith"? How are they any different?

How are they not the exact same thing?

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01-22-2012 , 12:39 AM

#23

soontobepro

adept

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 767

Quote:

Originally Posted by kb coolman

It seems to me like the sentence structure is ambiguous enough to allow it to mean that both are a gift in conjunction.

Though now that I think about it...The grace interpretation could be problematic in a similar fashion to the faith one. Theoretically, you could have faith and not receive grace...as It's a gift God could be selective with, just like faith. This is the problem with the word "gift". It shouldn't be a "gift". It should be an 'award' or an 'exchange', or something else which is guaranteed. Faith/works/whatever=Favor. But no, it says "gift". That gives God room to give you 'coal', even if you still did what was required for salvation.

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01-22-2012 , 03:23 AM

#24

t_roy

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Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 2,123

Quote:

Originally Posted by soontobepro

Salvation is a gift because we do not deserve it. However, God gives those who follow him this gift. Not because we deserve it, or he must give it to us, but because he wants to. God has given us the promise that he will give this gift to those that follow him and it is against God's nature to be dishonest. Therefore God will give you this gift of eternal life but not because we deserve it.

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01-22-2012 , 09:23 AM

#25

Splendour

banned

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 18,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janabis

I did not. Go back and read what I said.

I said you have to consult the right people. Skeptics are not the right people they're never going to delve into any topic like this far enough.

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