Excerpt from G. K. Chesterton's "The Everlasting Man" - Page 4 - Religion, God, and Theology

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Excerpt from G. K. Chesterton's "The Everlasting Man"

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09-27-2024 , 01:05 AM

#76

FellaGaga-52

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregory Illinivich

“Mr. Shaw cannot understand that the thing which is valuable and lovable in our eyes is man--the old beer-drinking, creed-making, fighting, failing, sensual, respectable man. And the things that have been founded on this creature immortally remain; the things that have been founded on the fancy of the Superman have died with the dying civilizations which alone have given them birth. When Christ at a symbolic moment was establishing His great society, He chose for its corner-stone neither the brilliant Paul nor the mystic John, but a shuffler, a snob, a coward--in a word, a man. And upon this rock He has built His Church, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it. All the empires and the kingdoms have failed, because of this inherent and continual weakness, that they were founded by strong men and upon strong men. But this one thing, the historic Christian Church, was founded on a weak man, and for that reason it is indestructible. For no chain is stronger than its weakest link.”

― G.K. Chesterton

Which is Jesus: a Superman or a weakest link?

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09-27-2024 , 03:06 AM

#77

Gregory Illinivich

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Neither. The Superman denies humanity. The weakest link is a repentant sinner.

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09-27-2024 , 03:06 AM

#78

Gregory Illinivich

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

Which is Jesus: a Superman or a weakest link?

But the sensation connected with Mr. Shaw in recent years has been his sudden development of the religion of the Superman. He who had to all appearance mocked at the faiths in the forgotten past discovered a new god in the unimaginable future. He who had laid all the blame on ideals set up the most impossible of all ideals, the ideal of a new creature. But the truth, nevertheless, is that any one who knows Mr. Shaw's mind adequately, and admires it properly, must have guessed all this long ago.

For the truth is that Mr. Shaw has never seen things as they really are. If he had he would have fallen on his knees before them. He has always had a secret ideal that has withered all the things of this world. He has all the time been silently comparing humanity with something that was not human, with a monster from Mars, with the Wise Man of the Stoics, with the Economic Man of the Fabians, with Julius Caesar, with Siegfried, with the Superman. Now, to have this inner and merciless standard may be a very good thing, or a very bad one, it may be excellent or unfortunate, but it is not seeing things as they are. it is not seeing things as they are to think first of a Briareus with a hundred hands, and then call every man a cripple for only having two. It is not seeing things as they are to start with a vision of Argus with his hundred eyes, and then jeer at every man with two eyes as if he had only one. And it is not seeing things as they are to imagine a demigod of infinite mental clarity, who may or may not appear in the latter days of the earth, and then to see all men as idiots. And this is what Mr. Shaw has always in some degree done. When we really see men as they are, we do not criticise, but worship; and very rightly. For a monster with mysterious eyes and miraculous thumbs, with strange dreams in his skull, and a queer tenderness for this place or that baby, is truly a wonderful and unnerving matter. It is only the quite arbitrary and priggish habit of comparison with something else which makes it possible to be at our ease in front of him. A sentiment of superiority keeps us cool and practical; the mere facts would make, our knees knock under as with religious fear. It is the fact that every instant of conscious life is an unimaginable prodigy. It is the fact that every face in the street has the incredible unexpectedness of a fairy-tale. The thing which prevents a man from realizing this is not any clear-sightedness or experience, it is simply a habit of pedantic and fastidious comparisons between one thing and another. Mr. Shaw, on the practical side perhaps the most humane man alive, is in this sense inhumane. He has even been infected to some extent with the primary intellectual weakness of his new master, Nietzsche, the strange notion that the greater and stronger a man was the more he would despise other things. The greater and stronger a man is the more he would be inclined to prostrate himself before a periwinkle. That Mr. Shaw keeps a lifted head and a contemptuous face before the colossal panorama of empires and civilizations, this does not in itself convince one that he sees things as they are. I should be most effectively convinced that he did if I found him staring with religious astonishment at his own feet. "What are those two beautiful and industrious beings," I can imagine him murmuring to himself, "whom I see everywhere, serving me I know not why? What fairy godmother bade them come trotting out of elfland when I was born? What god of the borderland, what barbaric god of legs, must I propitiate with fire and wine, lest they run away with me?"

The truth is, that all genuine appreciation rests on a certain mystery of humility and almost of darkness. The man who said, "Blessed is he that expecteth nothing, for he shall not be disappointed," put the eulogy quite inadequately and even falsely. The truth "Blessed is he that expecteth nothing, for he shall be gloriously surprised." The man who expects nothing sees redder roses than common men can see, and greener grass, and a more startling sun. Blessed is he that expecteth nothing, for he shall possess the cities and the mountains; blessed is the meek, for he shall inherit the earth. Until we realize that things might not be we cannot realize that things are. Until we see the background of darkness we cannot admire the light as a single and created thing. As soon as we have seen that darkness, all light is lightening, sudden, blinding, and divine. Until we picture nonentity we underrate the victory of God, and can realize none of the trophies of His ancient war. It is one of the million wild jests of truth that we know nothing until we know nothing,

Now this is, I say deliberately, the only defect in the greatness of Mr. Shaw, the only answer to his claim to be a great man, that he is not easily pleased. He is an almost solitary exception to the general and essential maxim, that little things please great minds. And from this absence of that most uproarious of all things, humility, comes incidentally the peculiar insistence on the Superman. After belabouring a great many people for a great many years for being unprogressive, Mr. Shaw has discovered, with characteristic sense, that it is very doubtful whether any existing human being with two legs can be progressive at all. Having come to doubt whether humanity can be combined with progress, most people, easily pleased, would have elected to abandon progress and remain with humanity. Mr. Shaw, not being easily pleased, decides to throw over humanity with all its limitations and go in for progress for its own sake. If man, as we know him, is incapable of the philosophy of progress, Mr. Shaw asks, not for a new kind of philosophy, but for a new kind of man. It is rather as if a nurse had tried a rather bitter food for some years on a baby, and on discovering that it was not suitable, should not throw away the food and ask for a new food, but throw the baby out of window, and ask for a new baby. Mr. Shaw cannot understand that the thing which is valuable and lovable in our eyes is man--the old beer-drinking, creed-making, fighting, failing, sensual, respectable man. And the things that have been founded on this creature immortally remain; the things that have been founded on the fancy of the Superman have died with the dying civilizations which alone have given them birth. When Christ at a symbolic moment was establishing His great society, He chose for its corner-stone neither the brilliant Paul nor the mystic John, but a shuffler, a snob, a coward--in a word, a man. And upon this rock He has built His Church, and the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it. All the empires and the kingdoms have failed, because of this inherent and continual weakness, that they were founded by strong men and upon strong men. But this one thing, the historic Christian Church, was founded on a weak man, and for that reason it is indestructible. For no chain is stronger than its weakest link.

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10-04-2024 , 05:27 AM

#79

Gregory Illinivich

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“The trouble when people stop believing in God is not that they thereafter believe in nothing; it is that they thereafter believe in anything.” ― G.K. Chesterton

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10-04-2024 , 09:44 PM

#80

FellaGaga-52

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Originally Posted by Gregory Illinivich

“The trouble when people stop believing in God is not that they thereafter believe in nothing; it is that they thereafter believe in anything.” ― G.K. Chesterton

Is it not religion that does exactly this? That every religion, denomination, and cult under the sun prospers precisely because of the gullibility inherent to "believing."

A lot of these tricks flipping reality around on its ear in the service of apologizing are just about placing some belief system over top of evident truth. C.S Lewis indeed might have adopted that trick from Chesterton. Definite shades of him in his gimmicks of why you should believe.

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10-04-2024 , 11:03 PM

#81

Gregory Illinivich

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

I think it has to do with the idea that unless one has a firm basis for their worldview and morality, they will be able to rationalize or justify anything. If there is no ultimate truth—even if it is an individual truth—then anything goes. Jung talks about conscience approaching him in the form of vox Dei. Without that voice acting as a guiding principle, one can "believe in anything." However, if one gives credence to that voice, they "believe in God."

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10-04-2024 , 11:17 PM

#82

Gregory Illinivich

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

A lot of these tricks flipping reality around on its ear in the service of apologizing are just about placing some belief system over top of evident truth.

What evident truth am I denying?

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10-05-2024 , 05:50 PM

#83

FellaGaga-52

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Originally Posted by Gregory Illinivich

What evident truth am I denying?

I meant that Chesterton and Lewis (not you) operated by flipping reality upside down.

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10-05-2024 , 10:53 PM

#84

Gregory Illinivich

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

I meant that Chesterton and Lewis (not you) operated by flipping reality upside down.

Hmm. I don't get that from Chesterton's apologetics. He's not a philosopher, and it shows in some of his work, but his approach to Christianity is logical. Lewis I have a harder time pinning down. He was a great writer and had a gift for getting ideas across clearly with few words, but when it comes to essays like "Myth Became Fact," it's not apparent what he believed when it came to the historical question. Even so, he hardly flipped reality upside down.

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10-06-2024 , 04:23 AM

#85

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“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” -- C.S. Lewis, from Mere Christianity

In this gimmick, he eliminated the one vastly most likely option of what Jesus was, and he did so to evade reality, to turn it on its ear, in an attempt to gain street cred for the religion. By trying to force one's hand into thinking he's either god or mad man, and eliminating the obvious option that in effect negates the religion, he sacrifices mind to expediency of belief. And the dude was super weird, practically forced into his "belief" ... and then became the obedient, manipulative pawn apologizer for the faith.

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10-06-2024 , 07:22 PM

#86

Gregory Illinivich

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

I agree with Lewis. The Holy Trinity and the idea that God became man and died for our sins is central to the Christian story. It doesn't work without it.

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10-06-2024 , 08:10 PM

#87

Gregory Illinivich

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Saying that he was only a moral teacher is like removing John Coffey's execution and ability to perform miracles from script of The Green Mile.

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10-09-2024 , 02:52 PM

#88

FellaGaga-52

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Originally Posted by Gregory Illinivich

Saying that he was only a moral teacher is like removing John Coffey's execution and ability to perform miracles from script of The Green Mile.

Yeah in that fiction tale.

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10-09-2024 , 11:10 PM

#89

Gregory Illinivich

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We've gone over this.

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10-12-2024 , 03:30 AM

#90

FellaGaga-52

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Originally Posted by Gregory Illinivich

We've gone over this.

It was a fiction superimposed over reality that trumped reality, and the only part literally true was the salvation part. Was that it?

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10-12-2024 , 04:01 AM

#91

Gregory Illinivich

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Close enough.

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