[ ] evidence of your god
[x] you're trying to appeal to human emotion because you know there is no evidence

It does go beyond this. My argument is this: The message of the Gospel, its central truth, is that God is Love. These individuals in their lives fully operationalized the Gospel, and achieved things otherwise impossible sans the Gospel message. To me, their lives validate the Gospel's truth. As I said earlier, folks from other Faiths may have some amazing stories (still waiting for some examples), but they too were likely inspired by Love, which means they too bear the marks of the Divine.

1) No

2) Check the search, but I've posted a bit on how I feel God makes provisions for the salvation of Non Christians. Check out the concept of Invincible Ignorance.

No this isnt what I meant. There are people who dont believe in God (really, truly dont). I was a strong atheist for many years.

What I meant is that it's ludicrous to suggest one can snap one's fingers and believe something you currently think is false or disbelieve something you currently do. Our House didnt make this claim, but it's a related topic imo. As I said though, I was rambling. I think the answer to Our House's question is personal experience and as a theist I'm perfectly fine with acknowledging that it doesnt constitute meaningful evidence to anyone else.

I suspect he thinks that "empirical evidence" is a tautology - many atheists think they dont believe anything (or shouldnt anyhow) unless there is empirical evidence to back up their belief.

I have waited around for a while, but I do not see that you've addressed this particular flaw in your logic. Would you like to address it now?

Yes. Simply put, look at the historical evidence and what Jesus' followers did after his death. For this reason I believe that there is a God, it is the Christian God, and Roman Catholicism is the correct religion. Also, for what it's worth, I don't believe any other religion can answer this question.

OK...and any number of people could be convinced to do any number of things for basically any reason. This was already stated in the thread and isn't evidence of anything other than MAYBE that jesus' followers did those things. It says nothing about the truth value of jesus's actions or divinity or even that he existed outside of the followers' heads.

People also killed old ugly ladies because they believed they were witches that caused harm to the town such as bringing storms. According to your logic, they must have been witches because people reacted as such. Does not follow.

gg no re bigdaddy?

I hope you understand I'm not trying to get you to think like I do about the existence of God. I'm trying to get you to understand that other people have different ways of happiness. YOU got into drugs and made your life miserable, and now you need a God to be happy. That's fine for you, but it's not for everyone. Your inability to see that shows a complete lack of respect for others. You're so convinced that your way is the only good way that you ignore the viewpoints of other people.

Most of the posters on this forum have been very patient with you, but my patience has run out. If you ever want to seriously discuss anything without resorting to asserting your premises over and over again and telling others what they need to be happy, I'd be more than willing to enter the debate. Until then I'm done with you, and I seriously hope you aren't so arrogant in your personal relationships.

Meh, no more follow up, just thought your original line about a guy running into a building reading a magic book was pretty tasteless, given how Fr. Judge is revered in NYC and nationwide for that matter. Say that type of thing around an FDNY firehall and you're a lock to get your ass kicked.

So basically you've provided zero evidence and now resorted to implicitly threatening people. I bet god is proud.

Game, set, match.

If you say so

A Chaplain providing comfort to POWs is not even close to evidence of a god.
A saint volunteering to take the place of a deceased father in a wedding is not even close to evidence of a god.
A selfless priest adminstering last rites in a collapsing building is not even close to evidence of a god.

Then, after realizing your attempts to be futile, you proceeded to get mad at me over your lack of evidence and implicitly threaten my life. Interesting.

The historicity of the book of Acts and the conditions under which the early Christian church existed and persevered is not under any serious question from an historical point of view. I don't think the types of deaths that the apostles willingly allowed themselves to be subjected to is under question, either.

It does not *prove* the truth value, but it calls to question whether they would do these things for a lie that they *KNEW* was a lie. It's one thing to be convinced of something that is false and act on those ideas. It's another to know the truth about it (whether Jesus did appear to them, whether they stole and hid the body... whatever happened between the crucifixion and the time they started preaching boldly). When you read the accounts, you also need to recognize that when they said they were or had witnesses to things, the culture was such that this was an extremely meaningful statement and taken very seriously.

The only way one could *prove* the truth value of the central claim of Christianity is whether if you could *prove* the resurrection happened or *prove* that it didn't happen. This is the linchpin on which all of Christianity rests. This is even admitted to in the Bible. From 1 Corinthians 15:

Given that the people who wanted to destroy Christianity had every reason and tons of opportunity to prove the Christians to be wrong on this point, it never happened. And in all the looks backwards toward this, nobody has ever found any undeniable evidence of the sort. Again, no proof, but some strong supporting circumstantial evidence the needs to be reckoned with.

Did you even read the links? Your 2nd bullet is an awful mangling about what happened (priest volunteers to take the place of a married man who had kids in a starvation bunker during the Holocaust...an amazing act of good in the face of some of the most terrible evil in human history). Read more about deeply about St. Maximilian, Fr Kapuan, and others like them. The inevitible conclusion is that their actions were not possible without God--since they perfectly lived the Gospel--they validated the truth of the Gospel.

Fixed.

And I didn't read any of those links because they are so obviously not evidence of anything other than you trying to spread the gospel.

Agree 100%. The recent historical examples I cite are simply an extrapolation of the work of the Apostles and the early Christian Church. Can I produce the same physical evidence to validate my faith the way I could, say, it was Mrs. White, in the Library, with the Rope? No I can't. But I do argue that it is irresponsible to thoughtlessly dismiss what we're presenting without honestly considering why these things happened the way they did.

QF I'm too lazy to actually read and understand what the other side presents and therefore I'm in no position to contribute anything worthwhile to this thread.

Have a good night sir. We're done.

When are you going to understand that church employees doing nice things for other people has zero to say about the truth value of the existence of god? It doesn't matter how many links you supply me with of church employees doing nice things because it has nothing to say about the truth value and is therefore not evidence and not worth my time.

Also, massive lolz at your e-anger and e-threats when confronted with that.

It has nothing to do with not being willing to understand the other side. It's clear simply based on the type of sources you're providing that you have no interest in actual evidence.

Just because I saw no others, here is a list of famous atheists who did some pretty good things: http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm

Also, people should read this because its funny and probably the best satire of religion ever: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/twainlfe.htm

I also really like this quote:

"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian." -Mark Twain

haha, so true. There are very few Christians (and I was the sole atheist in the bible study at my college for 4 years so I've got some experience-- yes yes, you Christians know more other Christians but you are probably biased) I know who follow, even remotely, the teachings of the bible.

On another note- I just saw a book (I wish I remember the name) about a guy who tries to live the bible to the T. As an example, somewhere in the bible it says you are only supposed to wear pure fiber or some such thing and thus the guy has wear a robe around New York and heard a sheep or something. Might be an interesting read.

Also for your reading pleasure, here is a list of 300 PROOFS why god certainly does exists so suck that atheists.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

some examples;
"
# TRANSCENDENTAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. PRESUPPOSITIONALIST (I)
(1) If reason exists then God exists.
(2) Reason exists.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

# COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT, a.k.a. FIRST CAUSE ARGUMENT (I)
(1) If I say something must have a cause, it has a cause.
(2) I say the universe must have a cause.
(3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.
(4) Therefore, God exists.

# ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (I)
(1) I define God to be X.
(2) Since I can conceive of X, X must exist.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

# ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT (II)
(1) I can conceive of a perfect God.
(2) One of the qualities of perfection is existence.
(3) Therefore, God exists.

# MODAL ONTOLOGICAL ARGUMENT
(1) God is either necessary or unnecessary.
(2) God is not unnecessary, therefore God must be necessary.
(3) Therefore, God exists."


And if those arguments didn't convince you. Bill O'Reilly, I guess, is the real proof that God exists.

From his new book:

" Next time you meet an atheist, tell him or her that you know a bold, fresh guy, a barbarian who was raised in a working-class home and retains the lessons he learned there.

Then mention to that atheist that this guy is now watched and listened to, on a daily basis, by millions of people all over the world and, to boot, sells millions of books.

Then, while the non-believer is digesting all that, ask him or her if they still don't believe there's a God!"

From Earlier:

Offering not even a cursory glance at those links I provided earlier is what the bolded part is tantamount to.

I'm not sure if people in this thread actually want to read about supporting religion with physical and scientific evidence but if so, here is another link to some good articles. Most of the articles are well written, thought out and present pretty solid arguments for exactly what Op wants. (if read with an open mind, of course).

http://www.helium.com/knowledge/2365...sical-evidence

edit: whoops, I was wrong. I read one good article and assumed most were at least half decent. I thought this paragraph in one article was particlarly funny.

"I have always believed in alien technology without ever having seen a UFO. The fact is if they can come and visit our world or any world they are obviously far more advanced than us and therefore could probably wipe us out if they wanted to. Let's take the premise that they are out there and do visit; what is stopping them from interfering with the planet and people on a global scale.

I myself believe that there is a reason they cannot do that and that is God, otherwise what's stopping the disintegration. I have heard that if aliens do make their presence known to us that that would tip religion in a tail spin, but why, I cannot understand that premise because whoever they are they too had to be created."

righttttttttttttt. ALIENS HAVEN'T BLOWN US UP YET SO THERE MUST BE A GOD. DOH! Why didn't I think of that? That guy should get a noble prize.

If I said here's my evidence that there's no god:

***3 random links about atheists doing nice things for people***

Would you honestly sit there and read them?