Where is it?

I'm not talking about evidence for a god or a supreme being. We've all seen those arguments before. Unfortunately, they say nothing about your particular religion and can equally apply to every conceivable religion. All of the specific "evidence" seems to be conveniently bundled up in your particular religion's holy book. For example:

Is there evidence for the Christian God anywhere but in the Bible?
Is there evidence for the Muslim God anywhere but in the Koran?
Is there evidence for the Jewish God anywhere but in the Torah?
etc. etc.

If the answer to these is "no", then there is ZERO (non-circular) evidence for your religion's god. And if you think this is false, post an argument for your particular god without appealing to your holy book.

Which leads us to...

Evidence AGAINST Religion

I touched on this in another thread. If you try hard enough to convince yourself that something is true, it will eventually become true to you. The key is recognizing the potential of this placebo effect. Religion is a result of conditioning. Whether it's cultural/sociological, mainstream media, your parents' upbringing, or whatever, ANYBODY can be convinced of ANYTHING. And this can easily be proven to work on people who aren't aware (or choose to ignore) that it's happening.

Feel free to disagree, but not without using logic.

Why worry about evidence when you can just have FAITH? (cue George Michael)

How does my logic hold up sir?

I TRIPLE DOG DARE a theist to argue with OP on this one.

Pretty sure I have argued their corner effectively on this one.

So there's still hope for you, Our House? I thought my chances were pretty slim with you, but Ok, I shall carry on then..

I used to experience agoraphobia real bad when I first got out of the hospital. I didn't have a clue what was going on. I thought I was going crazy, literally, because everytime I would be somewhere my body would go numb and I would become dizzy and I accepted the fact that I was losing touch with reality. Then after I prayed about it, "coincidently" I happened to be searching the internet and I found a link to agoraphobia, so I clicked it. And it described all of the feelings I was having and then I thought, THANK GOD! And for some reason after I read about it I was able to understand what was happening to me and it all made sense.

The reality of agoraphobia still existed in me, but it wasn't until I read about it that it made sense.

So you now worship Google?

Is there 100% undeniable evidence? Nope.

Do some religions stand up better to analysis via external evidence than others? Yes.

If I try hard enough to convince myself that I can deny the effects of gravity, it will not eventually become true to me. There might be a way to overcome it, but it will still have an effect.

I also don't see how it would "logically" follow that all religions are false based on the evidence that people can convince themselves that anything is true. How do you deny the possibility that someone may become convinced that something that is true is in fact true?

Edit: By the way, I haven't had a discussion on this in a long time. I look forward to an interesting, spirited, but WELL-REASONED debate.

But now you're crossing into territory that you are uneducated in so how is it that you know, instead of speculate what it is that you think you know?

If it, "eventually becomes true to you", then how is it not real? Is it not real because it's not real to YOU? Let me show you why it is that you have such a hard time with this: You simply cannot tell me that this physical world is all there is. I'm talking about something that is as easy as vibes passed from one to another. Positive vibes, negative vibes, your state of mind can control your surroundings. You can make good things happen when you are possitive, just as negative things when you are negative. These are spiritual causes.

Think about intuition. Sometimes people just know things that cannot be explained. Don't tell me anything about probability, I don't want to hear that nonsense. If you have been on this earth for any length of time you know that sometimes s**t happens that you know wasn't a coincidence. Now I'm not saying this is God Himself, all I'm saying is that this physical world IS NOT all there is.

And if it isn't all there is, then why deny the possibility that just maybe, there's a Spirit? Now you say not to refer to any holy book when answering your question, but thats not fair because any answer I give that I say is God, you say is coincidence. But through the holy book is what allows me to recognize. God made some definites on this earth. If a holy man and an atheist both jump off a building, we're goin' down, plain and simple. It's a definite. It's also definite that God interacts in you life whether you literally believe it or not. You are part of His will and His interactions in your life can be for a number of reasons, but you have seen God. You just looked past Him.

I'm sorry but I really don't know what you're talking about.

Damn, why is it that it takes me four paragraphs to say what was really intended to come out like this?

If someone can't accept God because there's no physical proof for Him then that is not a good argument. It's worth repeating. And THIS IS WHY! RIGHT HERE! How can an argument saying there's no proof of God (and I'll assume the argument is physical proof, because if you had other proof you wouldn't be arguing) stand, when God Himself says that He doesn't give physical proof? God is a personal God. Personal means within.

You just simply have a faulty argument to say that there is no God because you haven't seen Him, WHEN, you're not looking in the right place.

So if I drink arsenic that I've convinced myself is cherry cola, I won't die?

It's right there in the thread title: "(Outside Of Your Holy Book)".

What if the mind is purely physical?


Yeah, I'm feeling indulgent. Examples?

Doesn't the mere fact that there are people who disagree negate your argument? "You know what I'm talking about." "No, I don't."

And if it is all there is? And what if your only argument that there is 'more' consists entirely of bald assertion and appeals to sentiment? You've been asked for evidence, not re-iterations of your position.

As a practicing Catholic this is the only one I'm qualified to answer this one, so for practical purposes I'll ignore the other two. The message of the Gospel is useless unless a person lives it, the main message of course being that God is Love. In finding examples of people in Christian history who fully embody this message, the influence of the Divine becomes clear. Three of my favorite examples are below. In reading them, it is apparent that their selfless love and heroism is impossible without God. If you want to continue to argue that their achievements are poor evidence because:
Then go right ahead. The proof is in their lives:

Father Emil Kapaun, U.S. Army Catholic Chaplain providing faith, hope and comfort to fellow POWs during the Korean War.

Saint Maximilian Kolbe volunteers to take the place of a married father condemned to die in a starvation bunker in Auschwitz.

Father Mychal Judge, FDNY Chaplain, dies administering Last Rites to the fallen on 9/11.


There are countless others. If you'd like to cite examples of atheists whom you think approach this level of selfless love and heroism, I'm all ears.

This:

This is what it all comes down to. And it's more plausible that it isn't all there is.

The problem with this sort of thing is not even really that it's anecdotal and entirely subjective. It's that you'll never have the 999 coma-wives who 'just knew', but turned out to be wrong, queuing up to tell you their heart-chilling story of spirit-crushing non-miracles.

This in itself is an important statement. No, I won't tell you that this physical world is all there is...because there would be 0 evidence to back up my claim. However, that does not mean you get to insert whatever you want against the claim and call it a "default position". (IOW, "since you cannot provide evidence, then that means there MUST be a metaphysical, AND God exists there, AND it's the Christian God, AND souls can survive death, AND prayers get answered, AND ...")

Now THAT would be a ridiculous claim, no?

I disagree.

Ignoring all of that, the other problem with that sort of thing is it's also an argument for Zeus. He makes NO case (none whatsoever) for HIS god.

(Not that I can't find examples, just that I don't feel like putting any extra effort into this insane statement, BUT...)

Why single out atheists? What do you feel about ANY non-Christians/Catholics who approach that level of selfless love and heroism? Do you honestly believe they don't exist to the same extent as in your examples? Because if you do, not only is it the same "evidence" (lol) for their God, but it's overwhelming arrogance on your part.

Even if I were allowed to employ your horrible kind of logic, I wouldn't.

This whole setup is misconstrued and I suspect you know it.

What is the evidence for the scientific method? There is none. We can, however, debate over how it works and provide evidence for that, just like we can debate over how religion works for people and provide evidence for that.

A formula book is no evidence for physics, physics is just a working field. Just as religion is a set of rules and dogmas and rituals etc. of which a holy text is no evidence in the first place.

It can however give evidence to those in the field that the subject matter is correct and imparting wisdom or insight. But you place this against parts of science that can be proven, and you use this squeeky method, to construe an argument against (particular) Gods. But no parts of any gods can be proven in a scientific/logical way, much less being evident to all. We should know this, yet...

You ignore all this and try to put the onus of impossible proof on the theists.

There is no scientific evidence for a specific God. This is all you can wringe from the argument and it is a fact that almost all theists will gladly agree to.

The second error comes from the annoyingly persistant misconception that it is impossible for theists to equate Alah, Yahwe, God or even Apollo to one and the same force of Good, Love and Wisdom. That way you can keep your "arguments" bundled together.

This should be evidence for a religion that is riped with age and wisdom and trial and error and against modern crueler methods to exploit it. You rather the phenomenon you are describing falls under control of the media and current authority?

I trust FOX news could do a lot more damage to our perception of truth than reading the bible ever can. Because there is a benefit to the phenomenon you are describing. Give the people all the inner strength, happiness, feelings of being cared for, consolidation, spiritual insights at the cost of those gifts becoming true to them.

God, this is such FACT! You simply cannot just skim the pages of the Bible. You must read it with the sincerety to want to become the person that the Bible says you can. An unexplainable presence appears in the man who takes his life and gives it to Jesus. It becomes his heartbeat, what he wakes up everyday for. And you want this! You want this so bad and you don't even realize it! It is living without worry of what is to come.

Do you SEE THIS TRUTH?!?! In Bigdaddydvo's link to Father Emil Kapaun: Do you know the kind of man it takes to be able to do this? I don't mean say it, I mean LITERALLY DIE happily in pain because you know what is to come. That's what giving your life to Jesus means. THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS! Can, Can they really? TELL ME how you can die happy under those conditions in any other way? Only a man of God can leave this world and be put to death happily. And the reason is told at the end of 1 CORINTHIANS 2:16

Our House, as you have said it yourself before, "Sorry for being so peeved over this, but jeez OH, use your brain to THINK about things every once in a while!"

Don't you see where the PROOF is? It's in your (not yours) life! It's in the way you see things. It's the love you carry with you. It's what gives me the ability to find the GOOD in something bad. We all can do it but most people are affected by "rough days", "rough times". But when you know God exists, none of this matters because IT DOESN'T MATTER! It's trivial, petty crap that most people let themselves be affected by. But when you know what IS, you can You can tell me that you don't need God to find the good, but you do. Because that's what God is. God is always THE GOOD. And nobody else is ALWAYS looking for Him if they don't believe in Him. It's this constant search and inability to become downed that slowly transforms you into one who possesses the POWER, literal power, to become stronger then the weakness that would otherwise grasp you. It's unseen Our House, you can't look for it in the science books. It HAS to be believed. Like you said, And believe me, if you try hard enough to convince yourself that you have the power of Jesus in you, you will! The Bible is the descriptive book that tells you what you can accomplish. And And if you try hard enough to believe that, then, Do YOU recognize the potential of this placebo effect?

BigErf,

You're projecting your own experiences onto others. Just because you need to think God is with you to be happy does not mean others are the same way. Many of us are very happy and don't let "rough times" get to us despite not believing in God. I'm glad that you've found a way to be happier, but don't make the mistake of assuming other people need the same thing.

[ ] People will marvel at my invaluable contribution to this thread in the form of a hackneyed "Threadfails" gif.