Christ went through ~30 years of torture, insult, misunderstanding, and finally death for no apparent reason...if that's the case.

You believe that because Jesus died on the cross, some people are saved.
Universalists believe that because Jesus died on the cross, all people are saved.

In which view does the suffering of Jesus have greater value?

Do yourself a favor and stop posting, atleast in this forum, and in before "not christian like"

BTW-to answer your question, the 1st view, because the universalists' view is made up and has no bearing.

Have to say I'm amazed at what I've read in this thread!
One or two guys, should keep an eye open for men in white coats.

I believe Dr. Stephen E. Jones view is the most accurate one I've read to date.

One of his writings explains here: http://www.dimensionsoftruth.org/oth...yone-would-he/

For others check out his God's Kingdom Ministries site. He has a lot of writings in depth like his work Creation's Jubilee. He bridges alot between the OT and the NT trying to keep to the Hebraic view rather than a philosophic Greek view of the bible.

Can you make up some more highly original unique Pletho bible versus to justify this better please? That was one of the best parlour tricks yet done in RGT in my humble opinion...

The word is very explicit about this. He died for ALL mankind without exception. But only those who believe in him will benefit from it.

No. There are other reasons to ask questions. One example is to steer the conversation in a particular direction, another is to find out what somebody else knows, and a third is to get somebody to think about something, for example.

And of all of the people on this forum thus far you have demonstrated that you are one of the least capable of learning. It would behoove anyone to steer clear of advice from you regarding understanding how to learn.

The point was not 'what does the bible claim is the reason' but that the death of Jesus could still have been a necessity even if everybody is saved.

Which, from a universalist perspective, just means that everyone will eventually come to believe in him.

That's why I read Jones. I think the bible is a believer's book. It's the road less travelled for believers. It is the narrow way. Not the world's way. The world always disagrees with the bible or objects to it.

There is a distinction made between believers by God. Some believers are in the first resurrection while some are in the second one. "Eternal life" equals the first resurrection.

The second resurrection misses out on 1,000 years and will be raised and have to go through God's purification fire later. Could there be any pain in that: maybe. But its not an eternal pain or punishment.

Based on the OT God corrects and his "punishments" are always proportional and designed to correct the individual not destroy him. His actions are remedial in nature not punitive.

Dr. Jones shows from OT law given to the Hebrews that God is proportional. An eye for an eye is proportional.

You can read the bible and see only believers of Jesus Christ in the first resurrection while both believers and unbelievers are in the second. They get saved in different proportions in the second group.

How do you get to the Great White Throne of Judgment if you weren't raised (saved) first? It is the blood of Jesus that removes the curse of death so everyone can make it to this Judgment where they are judged with proportionate mercy.

There is a difference between barley and wheat in the bible and this relates to classes of believers as well. You can liken some believers to barley and some to wheat. Barley is harvested first.

It was well deserved too!