"I believe the mass killing of babies and fetuses because of wrongdoing of others generations before is a good and moral thing; I believe the magic claims of a superstition based culture of thousands of years ago unreservedly and uncritically; I still employ the "god of the gaps" principle even though it has been proven ridiculous; I believe sacrifice scapegoating is a good, reasonable, moral and holy; I sustain the bigotry of thousands of years ago against all reasoned takes on diversity and humanism; I believe in the doctrine of salvation even though it is established as a concocted gimmick of religion to garner adherents and to make money ..."

The stupid religion is a faux front porch, and behind it rages a shadow virulently alive because sacrificial scapegoats do nothing to address it, thus the shadow aspect of the personality is not integrated into a tolerant and compassionate state, but instead lashes out in ignorance of itself and in ignorance of wisdom. Preferring, instead of wisdom, ridiculous dogma and doctrine from ancient, ignorant times.

Note that the prisons are full of religious violent offenders, that total fraud preachers are legion, that bullies, thiefs, bigots, financial fraudsters, rapists, killers, child abusers, are all overwhelmingly religious. That is not to argue that the religion is false because of this odd state of affairs, but it makes apparent exactly how the religion is being used in consciousness, that is, why the person claims to be religious. And it simply is not about reality, the true self, or even one's actual values and life.

Respect for the mystery instead of this stupid acting like it’s been solved by faith is what religion should be about. Of course they fundamentalize it into a bunch of BS magic stories, brimstone, and money. Meh.

A discussion between a Christian and a potential convert:

Convert: This mass killing of infants, toddlers, fetuses, all of them on earth in the flood, I don't really see how that is perfect love, in keeping with what god is?

Christian: Oh, that's easy. It's his perfect righteousness. He can't let sin go unpunished, so he killed all these millions of children because of something some adults did previously.

Convert: Oh? He killed millions of children for something someone else did as an expression of his perfect righteousness?

Christian: Yes.

Convert: Well that doesn't really seem very righteous, does it? I would never hurt a baby or child even if they did do something wrong.

Christian: But divine love and righteousness is different. It slaughters those who disobey or who are offspring of those who disobey, and it will slaughter you if you disobey.

Convert: You know, my children have misbehaved and there is not even a very imperfect love or morality which kills or even hurts them for it.

Christian: This sounds kind of like blasphemy or heresy to me. You are questioning the ways of God Almighty?

Convert: Oh, sorry. What's the punishment for that?


As you can see, the appalling doctrine of the religion precludes it from being anything other than a primitive, barbaric idea about love and right and wrong. The fact that we excuse all this under the indoctrination laid on us, is understandable. Going against these ideas is taught to us as blasphemy and evil, and that makes it very difficult to be willing to assess it.

First time reading/posting in this thread and came in the middle of your bitter ranting to point out that I am a forensic psychologist and everything you say here, and elsewhere for that matter, is entirely wrong. You’re lying out of your ignorance and distorting facts to fit your narrative.

I’m not going to engage with someone as incapable of rational discussion as you clearly are so this will be my first and only post here.

I’m an unashamed Christian. God is real. Jesus is real. I hope someday you open your heart to the Lord and your anger and bitterness are replaced with love and compassion.

Odin , zeus, Ra , Brahma, are as real for the followers of those religion as u are with your god .
All claiming they are the real ones and the « only truth » to follow.
Nothing more and nothing less .

That is a lot of 1 to be the only 1 ……

Ps: I’m not even mentioning the many different branches there is in Christianity with the same problem of unicity .

creation god? no. infinite regress. not possible.

And so the true believer is going to do the exact opposite of what the religion instructs to do toward unbelievers. Good move, because the whole reason he needs to do that is his "belief" is outclassed by reality. He needs to do the opposite of what the religion commands in order to preserve belief. And that's a problem. So rant and run. I'm not even against the religion, but just against this kind of lying arse apologetics.

Note the religious approach here. Everything I say in this thread and elsewhere is wrong. I'm sorry: LOL. Is that a person even concerned with speaking truth, or just someone spewing? Next charge: "I'm lying out of ignorance." But if one is ignorant about something it isn't lying, which entails knowing the truth but saying otherwise." I'm "incapable of rational discussion" when the rationality of my case is the exact thing which terrifies him. I am full of bitterness and anger, but he is the one for the mass killing of the world's children, infants, and fetuses ... BECAUSE IT'S HOLY. AND IT'S PERFECT LOVE. And he can cite the magic claims and beliefs of barbarians as defense.

The thing is , how can u believe in something that is real ?
U don’t need to believe in something that is real , u know it’s real .
Believe is needed when u don’t know .
The whole point of having faith .

Probably why countless of gods already existed before and will keep appearing later .

Because we don't always know what is real and what isn't. So the religious approach is to just inject whatever belief you want into the uncertainty, and then claim divine certainty or revelation. It's self-deluding, not in the strict psychological sense but in a lay meaning of a misled "answer." Usually, as we see, a final answer, "and don't bother me with any reality principle" type approach to it.

I just have trouble when a person uses « rational, real , ignorance » while using words like faith and beliefs to justify it .
It just makes no sense .

Did the stories of Jesus arise in a magic believing and superstitious culture?

Was the culture at the advent of the Abrahamic religions bigoted, chauvinistic, and pre-scientific age?

Do human beings have a tendency to concretize legends and myths into “reality.”

Could a god of love possibly wipe out all the infants, children and fetuses on earth? Is such a thing really righteousness? Is it? (You are allowed to use your mind to assess any belief system. And if you aren’t, that renders it … what? What does mindlessness render a belief?)

When I hear the doctrine of a given religion, do I identify it as doctrine or do I think it is the nature of reality be cited? Can I make this distinction as a way of overcoming indoctrination?

“Religion is at its best when it questions, and at its worst when it claims to have the answers for everybody.” – Archibald Macleish

I'm an unashamed atheist tho I don't have any problems with people being believers. My parents are quite Catholic and I was raised this way

But much like you and other religious types hope that we non-believers "open your heart to the lord..." I hope someday you are able to appreciate that your world view is not scientific or, dare I say, rational. It's fine to state that you are a believer but by definition a believer BELIEVES something to be true. That doesn't mean it is true

Potential convert: And the killing of every child, infant and fetus on earth is not just a fire and brimstone story, but actually happened?

Believer: We like to say that he created us so he can kill us. No problem.

Potential convert: And he WANTS to kill them is the point. Meaning, when they misbehave, mass killing was his desire and strategy??

Believer: Yes.

Potential convert: And you are good with that?

Believer: Yes. If the doctrine says it, we believe it. That's part of being religious. *(And really, this type of obedience is most or all of being religious.)

Getting real about religion in lieu of magical thinking, it seems more like this.

Here's another rant that must be lied about, either the content or the source, to apologize for:

"(Religion) is so pathetically absurd, so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, so much of a wish fulfillment ... it is embarrassing to think the majority of people will never rise above it." -- Sigmund Freud

I mean who cares if it is foreign to reality? We believe it. We were taught this stuff in Sunday School. So now, whenever the nature of reality comes up, we mistake this religious doctrine for reality, and we parrot it. And whenever morality comes up, we mistake this magic believing doctrine for morality. After all, they believed it thousands of years ago and they said we need to believe it or else. So we do. Reality is a small thing to sacrifice under this type of influence.

Meh. Morality begins with respect for reality ... with not lying, with not fabricating, with not overruling reality with wish fulfillment, with not accepting magic claims at face value, with adjusting our beliefs to reality instead of adjusting reality to what we want to believe, with not rejecting reality under the pressure of whims. Not faith, not obedience, not authoritarianist god belief. Respect for reality of myself and of the world is the foundation of morality. We begin there -- we learn that tough lesson -- or our morality and our metaphysics are a fantasy.

At the snap of a finger he could feed the world's hungry, but opted for parlor tricks like walking on water instead in a little slice of Galilee, appealing to the superstitious of the day. You know, exactly like the other supernatural stories predominant in the era. "We take this at face value and literally just as they did centuries ago, for it would be evil not too."

“God is not a Christian, God is not a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist. All of those are human systems which human beings have created to try to help us walk into the mystery of God. I honor my tradition, I walk through my tradition, but I don't think my tradition defines God, I think it only points me to God.” ~ Bishop John Shelby Spong

Or instead of "to god" ... to the mystery. Beautiful sentiment, and one not possible to fundamentalists, whether of the taliban or baptists any other belief. That's all the same.

Give your first 10% of your income to your local church.

On top of the 35-40% already nabbed by government.

To have some parrot with their magic stories from thousands of years ago, who believe morality consists of how intently they claim to believe, to have this ilk arrogate to themselves and their doctrine the right and wrong of ANY issue, is an inanity and a self-delusion of the first order.

If someone looks at the progression of human sacrifice in religion design, and won't recognize that in the Christian religion the designers were down with the sacrifice idea prevalent in other belief systems, just piggybacking off that with a new and improved version, you know just ratcheted up the stakes to sacrifice of god himself in human form ... if someone refuses to acknowledge this obvious design feature of religion, you don't want them assessing any proposition that requires any kind of judgment about what's real or where religions comes from.

We sit in church. We are in the good club and "you all," the "other," that omnipresent victim of prejudice by human beings, belongs in hell forever while I bask in paradise. We believe this because of magic stories from thousands of years ago and just refuse to apply critical thinking and simple reality testing to religion. Reason does not apply there. And so we believe.

I am a Christian and I have been walking with the Lord for 12 years since my conversion from 24 years of atheism. I encountered the Lord and came to believe because he revealed himself to me. I believe anyone would be a believer if they experienced what I experienced, so I feel very thankful to God that he chose to reveal himself to me. The bible promises that if you seek him with all your heart he will be found by you. If you truly question whether God exists, then set aside everything to pursue him, he will reveal himself to you. But if you are focused on your job, your family and friends, and see God as only a topic of discussion or minor interest, he will hide himself from you. I believe it it worth it to seek God with all your heart because eternity is at stake!