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Old 06-08-2021, 12:26 AM   #551
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
So are we dropping "life is in the blood" from the list, given it's completely trivial?
No. Will respond soon.
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Old 06-08-2021, 05:29 AM   #552
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Great. I look forward to hearing which people in history hadn't figured out if you lose too much blood then you die.
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Old 06-08-2021, 09:06 AM   #553
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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I posted the above on April 13, 2021 (over 50 days ago).

All of the regular non-Christian participants in this Forum have had the means, motive, and opportunity to debunk my above post. And yet, none have even attempted to do so.

I am pleased that we are all apparently agreed on at least this one amazing aspect of the Bible.

Peace.
Speaking only for myself, you put out so much garbage that it's not worth parsing line by line. In your post, you cherry pick some very ambiguous phrasing that supposedly shows revealed truth.

Saying the earth is a circle is not the same as saying it is a sphere, and you conveniently leave out the description of a "firmament", etc.

Mentioning that the number of stars is vast isn't impressive, but you left out the part where the stars fall to earth (as if they are simply suspended above the earth).

If we're going to have revealed truth, why have so many falsehoods? Witches? Really? Why not some truth about germ theory.


So, don't be so smug and conclude that because no one responded it must be because we all acknowledge the validity of your post. Quite the opposite. You've shown such a penchant for posting apologetic drivel that you are not worth the time.
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Old 06-08-2021, 11:24 AM   #554
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Great. I look forward to hearing which people in history hadn't figured out if you lose too much blood then you die.
Strawman Fallacy. DUCY?
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Old 06-08-2021, 11:29 AM   #555
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Speaking only for myself, you put out so much garbage that it's not worth parsing line by line. In your post, you cherry pick some very ambiguous phrasing that supposedly shows revealed truth.

Saying the earth is a circle is not the same as saying it is a sphere, and you conveniently leave out the description of a "firmament", etc.

Mentioning that the number of stars is vast isn't impressive, but you left out the part where the stars fall to earth (as if they are simply suspended above the earth).

If we're going to have revealed truth, why have so many falsehoods? Witches? Really? Why not some truth about germ theory.


So, don't be so smug and conclude that because no one responded it must be because we all acknowledge the validity of your post. Quite the opposite. You've shown such a penchant for posting apologetic drivel that you are not worth the time.
There is a slight problem with the bolded: It is totally wrong! People have still been responding to my "apologetic drivel" quite a lot long after I posted the "drivel" currently under discussion.
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Old 06-08-2021, 12:04 PM   #556
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Strawman Fallacy. DUCY?
No, obviously not.
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Old 06-08-2021, 03:16 PM   #557
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Why You Can Trust the Bible: Page 4 of 4

There are many scientific truths found in the Bible that we have no historical record of being discovered by scientists for many hundreds (and in some cases thousands) of years after these truths were recorded in the Bible.
The reason people aren't interested in responding is because these are such obvious post hoc arguments. You take ambiguous statements out of context and claim they mean things discovered by modern science, when the actual people reading the Bible before science got going gave no evidence of believing these things. Meanwhile you ignore the statements that can be interpreted to imply false scientific claims. And you aren't even doing the work yourself, but just copy-pasting from another source.

For example:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

Flat Earth beliefs are often based on literal interpretations of the Bible.

Quote:
(These examples are from the book The Bible: Is It Reliable by June Hunt.)

A. Geophysics: The earth is round - a sphere.

“It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth…” (Isaiah 40:22)
A circle is not a sphere. Also, many ancient Greeks also claimed that the earth was round. This included well-known philosophers such as Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, Eratosthenes, etc.

Quote:
B. Planetology: The earth is suspended from space.

“He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7)
Uh...not sure how you think this either comports with modern science as it more seems to imply a stationary planet than a moving one. The earth doesn't "hang from nothing" but rather is constantly moving through space.

Quote:
C. Astronomy: The number of stars cannot be counted (from a practical point of view).

“That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore…” (Genesis 22:17)
It isn't that difficult to estimate the number of the descendants of Abraham that have so far existed and it isn't even close to the number of stars that exist.

Quote:
D. Earth Science: Mountains and canyons exist in the sea.

“I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever…” (Jonah 2:6)
I think knowing that islands exists is probably sufficient to talk about mountains in the sea. However, you are ignoring the fact that Jonah is talking about some place called Sheol at the base of these mountains. What is that?

Quote:
E. Oceanography:

1. Water paths/ocean currents exist in the sea.

“The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.” (Psalm 8:8)
.
2. Springs and fountains exist in the sea.

“When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep.” (Proverbs 8:28)
You think ancient seafaring peoples such as the Phoenicians were unaware that the ocean has currents?

Quote:
F. Hydrology: Precipitation and evaporation cycles exist.

“He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them...For he maketh small the drops of water: they pour down rain according to the vapor thereof; which the clouds do drop and distill upon man abundantly...Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; to cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; to satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth” (Job 26:8; 36:27-28;38:25-27)
Lol, good job guys, you've discovered that rain somehow comes from clouds.

Quote:
G. Genetics: All living things reproduce after their own kind.

“And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind…” (Genesis 1:21)
Too bad it is false that all living things reproduce after their own kind.

Quote:
H. Hematology: Life is in the blood.

“For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is in the blood thereof…” (Leviticus 17:14)
Another false statement: plants are living organisms, but have no blood. Otherwise this is some kind of unscientific claim about "life."

Quote:
I.. Urology: Circumcision is to be performed on the eighth day.

“And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations…” (Genesis 17:12)
Lol. This has nothing to do with science.

Quote:
J. Epidemiology: Public sanitation is essential.

“Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad: And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee.” (Deuteronomy 23:12-13)
You left out the important epidemiological advice in verse 11:

Quote:
If one of you becomes unclean because of a nocturnal emission, then he shall go outside the camp; he must not come within the camp. When evening comes, he shall wash himself with water, and when the sun has set, he may come back into the camp.
Wouldn't want any solders who have wet dreams around as they might pollute everyone around them.

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K. Public Health: Policies are needed

1. Never eat animals that died of natural causes. (Lev. 7:24)

2. To destroy contaminated objects. (Lev. 11:13; 15:12)

3. To isolate or quarantine those who are sick. (Lev. 13:4)

4. To burn used dressings, contaminated clothing. (Lev 13:47-54)

5. To rid the house of any mold. (Lev 14:34-47)

6. To wash clothes and bathe after touching someone with an infection or touching the bed of someone with an infection. (Lev 15:11)
Congratulations on discovering that "policies are needed," a great scientific breakthrough.
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Old 06-08-2021, 03:42 PM   #558
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Now you've diluted it by going through the full list I'm never going to find out which people didn't realise you needed blood to live.
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Old 06-08-2021, 04:44 PM   #559
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
Great. I look forward to hearing which people in history hadn't figured out if you lose too much blood then you die.

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Originally Posted by lagtight View Post
Strawman Fallacy. DUCY?
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Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
No, obviously not.
I'd also like to hear how this is a strawman.
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Old 06-09-2021, 02:28 PM   #560
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Originally Posted by Bladesman87 View Post
So are we dropping "life is in the blood" from the list, given it's completely trivial?

Devotional on Leviticus 17:11 by the late, great Dr. Henry Morris himself:


https://www.icr.org/article/12495
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Old 06-09-2021, 02:40 PM   #561
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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The reason people aren't interested in responding is because these are such obvious post hoc arguments. You take ambiguous statements out of context and claim they mean things discovered by modern science, when the actual people reading the Bible before science got going gave no evidence of believing these things. Meanwhile you ignore the statements that can be interpreted to imply false scientific claims. And you aren't even doing the work yourself, but just copy-pasting from another source.

For example:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

Flat Earth beliefs are often based on literal interpretations of the Bible.
The above verses support Geocentrism, but not necessarily Flat Earthism.


Quote:
A circle is not a sphere. Also, many ancient Greeks also claimed that the earth was round. This included well-known philosophers such as Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Archimedes, Eratosthenes, etc.
True. But it was later before it was proven by science.

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Uh...not sure how you think this either comports with modern science as it more seems to imply a stationary planet than a moving one. The earth doesn't "hang from nothing" but rather is constantly moving through space.
I am a Geocentrist.
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Old 06-09-2021, 02:44 PM   #562
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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I look forward to hearing which people in history hadn't figured out if you lose too much blood then you die.
As far as I know, it has always been known that losing too much blood can be deadly.
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Old 06-09-2021, 06:23 PM   #563
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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As far as I know, it has always been known that losing too much blood can be deadly.
Then a statement like "life is in the blood" is one any person in history could've said. It's not some special knowledge the Bible had before anyone else. It's trivial. Can we drop it from the list now?
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Old 06-09-2021, 07:03 PM   #564
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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The above verses support Geocentrism, but not necessarily Flat Earthism.
The bolded is not a standard you have otherwise used when quoting verses as evidence for your claim about the Bible prefiguring scientific claims. But if you want more explicit evidence of a flat earth viewpoint:

“And upon Elam will I bring the four winds from the four quarters of heaven, and will scatter them toward all those winds; and there shall be no nation whither the outcasts of Elam shall not come” (Jer 49:36, KJV).

“Son of man, this is what the Sovereign LORD says to the land of Israel: “The end! The end has come upon the four corners of the land!”” (Ezek 7:2).

“And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree” (Rev 7:1; 20:8).

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True. But it was later before it was proven by science.
It was proven well enough by the ancient Greeks. Eratosthenes was even able to get a relatively accurate estimate of the earth's size.
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I am a Geocentrist.
You believe the sun revolves around the earth and that the earth doesn't move?
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Old 06-10-2021, 02:40 AM   #565
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Just read through the complete book of Grimm's fairy tales ... with continuous appearances of St. Peter at the Gate, the Lord, paradise, heaven/hell/purgatory, Lucifer, Satan, angels, magic, fairies, pixies, miracles, 12 Apostles, etc. Some written 5000 years ago. People living hundreds of years in the stories when we know life expectancy then was about 25 years.

Hmmmm. How do we know it happened? It's in the book. Exactly what the fancied story genres were back then. Hmmm ... any parallels anywhere?
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Old 06-10-2021, 03:43 AM   #566
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Then a statement like "life is in the blood" is one any person in history could've said. It's not some special knowledge the Bible had before anyone else. It's trivial. Can we drop it from the list now?
The common practice of bloodletting up until the nineteenth century seems to belie the notion that "life is in the blood" was an accepted fact.
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:14 AM   #567
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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The common practice of bloodletting up until the nineteenth century seems to belie the notion that "life is in the blood" was an accepted fact.
Now you're straight contradicting yourself. You said that all people knew that blood was necessary for life. That includes bloodletters.

Bloodletting was largely based on the idea of the humours and keeping them balanced. Removing some blood would supposedly restore the balance. But they very much knew that blood was vitally important to life. They would easily have been able to accept a statement like "Life is in the blood" (which I still don't think is technically true in a modern understanding anyway).

Can we drop it from the list now?
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Old 06-10-2021, 04:40 AM   #568
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Now you're straight contradicting yourself. You said that all people knew that blood was necessary for life. That includes bloodletters.
Scientists and even most ordinary folks have known for centuries that blood is necessary for life, but not that the blood and its proper circulation is essentially the cornerstone of the life of humans.

Quote:
Bloodletting was largely based on the idea of the humours and keeping them balanced. Removing some blood would supposedly restore the balance. But they very much knew that blood was vitally important to life. They would easily have been able to accept a statement like "Life is in the blood" (which I still don't think is technically true in a modern understanding anyway).

Can we drop it from the list now?
I'll keep it on the list for now.
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Old 06-10-2021, 06:35 AM   #569
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Scientists and even most ordinary folks have known for centuries that blood is necessary for life, but not that the blood and its proper circulation is essentially the cornerstone of the life of humans.
The verse quoted:
“For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is in the blood thereof…”

It doesn't say anything about circulation. It doesn't say anything about being the "cornerstone". It doesn't say anything a bloodletter wouldn't wholeheartedly agree with. And blood being the "cornerstone" of life isn't something a modern biologist or doctor would say anyway.

You're just trying to suppose any reason you can think of to make this fit somehow.
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Old 06-11-2021, 12:58 PM   #570
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Scientists and even most ordinary folks have known for centuries that blood is necessary for life, but not that the blood and its proper circulation is essentially the cornerstone of the life of humans..
The Bible doesn’t say anything about circulation. Blood being an important thing for life to happen seems like not the extraordinary insight you make it out to be.
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Old 06-15-2021, 05:43 AM   #571
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Re: Do you believe in God?

From the same religion that killed witches, that practiced genocide, that condoned slavery, that is and was intimate with the KKK, that borrowed doctrine wholesale from myths, that believes demons and devils cause illness, whose characters chat with snakes and donkeys, whose god killed every fetus on earth in “The Flood” and is now held up as fetus rights advocate, whose god is night and day different between Old and New Testament but “never changes,” that demeans women, that instructed to kill homosexuals and non-virginal women and rebellious children (just stone them, what the heh?), that brought us the virgin birth, whose god is into blood, torture and sacrifice, that brought us the Crusades and Inquisitions, that brought us the sinful nature of newborns, that brought us systemic predation greenlighted within the church structure …

Such a god could have chosen anything under the sun for a system, and he chose this one. To accept it is to refuse to think in the realm of religion. Any time a true believer feels threatened by uncertainty, by existential anxiety, he chooses this god of “certainty.” He runs to this fantasized caretaker who resolves all such issues and offers streets of gold forever. These same assume that purpose and meaning, to be had, must be handed by a supernatural being or it can’t exist. Why? “God answers all my existential problems magically … do not expect me to entertain such issues with realism.”

There are a lot of evils in the world that purport to be good, and that ensnare humankind. None are more so than this kind of obedience, whose god can proclaim: “I can murder every child and fetus on earth and you will call it good, holy, and righteous.” This kind of amorality -- ceding it to evil others -- is how evil propagates throughout the world. When in fact a reasoned system of morality, of moral and immoral, is available, but I choose this one … I am in service of ancient, superstitious ignorant barbarism. And I call my obedience to it virtue.

There is a grand defense for it all. To wit: the religion exists but the god doesn’t. We are then free to delete the abominations from it (as being from a primitively ignorant barbaric society, not an all-knowing god), and continue on with it as an attempted but failed system of morality. But that entails getting one’s own agency involved instead of surrendering it to otherworldly powers. A humane, reasoned humanism of that sort is the enemy of religion. When I say I want my morality system to be objective, and therefore need it to come from god, what I really mean is I want it to be universal and authoritarian and certain. After all “coming from the supernatural” is hardly the definition of “objective.” But a moral system coming from an omniscient, morally perfect god would indeed be universal, ultimate, hand fed to us, authoritarian, absolute. So I make “Him” up. And abandon agency. Then I concoct an “eternal life card,” and boy is this system great …

The willful doubling down on something when it is exposed as false is a stubborn, stoopid “Leave me alone with reality … I’m closed minded about this …” It's a human vice. As is so often the case, the “self behind the self” (Emily Dickinson poem) is the one calling the shots, and this is even more true with religious proclamation. And it is precisely then that we see the stubborn return to the hard line miming of the ritual belief, such as: "I believe Jesus Christ is the son of the living God and in the salvation of my soul from being human thru grace from eternal hell damnation ..."

Because that is what religion is: a miming of a hard line that staves off the existential threat of being alive, and of hosting a consciousness. This host, lurking behind the self, is where the power is. It doesn’t mime.

Last edited by FellaGaga-52; 06-15-2021 at 05:50 AM.
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Old 06-19-2021, 07:05 PM   #572
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Re: Do you believe in God?

There is a tension created when the understanding of God as sovereign, just, and good is put in conflict by our direct experience of unnecessary, irreconcilable suffering and evil. To avoid that existential crisis, many choose to sacrifice the truth of their direct experience and instead habitually and unconditionally reconcile through various rationalizations in order to relieve the tension. I understand why you don’t find this admirable.

However, there is another common pattern of behavior often used to avoid this crisis. It is to deny the sovereignty of God while at the same time trying to salvage the ideal, the transcendent good, through frameworks such as Humanism. The result is a good which is no longer transcendent divorced from God. It’s the pattern of building sandcastles and tyrannically blinding yourself to their inadequacy.

When this second person gets exposed to himself and loses the cover of self deception, he will find himself back at the unresolved crisis point and will often scapegoat the first type of person (the habitual reconciler) in a desperate, shortsighted attempt at relieving his built up resentment as a result of his victimhood.

The reality is that God and the sustainable good are two sides of the same coin. Punting on the idea of God, or denying the sovereignty of God, is not a solution to the internal splitting of existential crisis. Just as denying our judgment and unconditionally reconciling with God is not a solution. We are to wrestle with God - an idea that those ignorant, barbaric ancestors of ours already figured out.
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Old 06-19-2021, 10:11 PM   #573
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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However, there is another common pattern of behavior often used to avoid this crisis. It is to deny the sovereignty of God while at the same time trying to salvage the ideal, the transcendent good, through frameworks such as Humanism.
I'm really not sure what you're saying in your entire post, but here you seem to be contrasting two types of theists: one that rationalizes an all-powerful god with the reality of life's suffering vs. one that doesn't consider god to be all-powerful. So, why bring Humanism into it?

Unless, by "denying the sovereignty of God" you really mean to deny the existence of god? For such a person, why would you even presume an existential crisis exists?
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Old 06-19-2021, 10:59 PM   #574
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Unless, by "denying the sovereignty of God" you really mean to deny the existence of god? For such a person, why would you even presume an existential crisis exists?
It is impossible for anyone to lose their soul completely, no matter what they believe. With that said, if someone is committed to their status quo, then no truth besides suffering will be brought into awareness for them until that commitment changes.
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Old 06-19-2021, 11:04 PM   #575
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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It is impossible for anyone to lose their soul completely, no matter what they believe. With that said, if someone is committed to their status quo, then no truth besides suffering will be brought into awareness for them until that commitment changes.
Wat?
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