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Old 05-08-2021, 01:58 AM   #501
lagtight
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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You do like that anecdote, don't you?! Here it is in full:


Source
Thanks for the link. I heard the anecdote in a lecture that he gave that was published on Youtube.

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Frankly, it sounds like an embellished/hyperbolic story.
Frankly, it sounds like a true story (to me). When I see Professor Kreeft in Heaven, I'll try to remember to ask him if the story was embellished or not.

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If its true, it's as absurdly bad as "look at the trees!" - but regardless, it says nothing about why they became Christians, just why they were no longer atheist or agnostic.
Sorry, I'm not familiar with the "Look at the trees!" argument. Please say more.

I've heard testimonies that reveal an evolution (so to speak) of an individual moving from atheism to agnosticism to deism to theism to Christianity.
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Old 05-08-2021, 02:06 AM   #502
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Even as an anecdote, this doesn't sound like someone who became a Christian because of apologetics, but of someone being persuaded about the specific topic of creationism.
Creationism is often a gateway to Christianity.

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I do think apologetics is that simplistic.
Duly noted.

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That's an unexpected answer.
So...what of the elect?
That is an excellent question! I will endeavor to answer that question when I get more time later next week.
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Old 05-09-2021, 03:55 PM   #503
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Re: Do you believe in God?

after coming across alot of stuff in the world from freemasons, to satanic bible, new age spiritualism, 911 conspiracy's, there is in fact a God. then you read the bible and it describes people in the world today. The bible talks about someone like Joel Osteen and describes him. not really in a good light as such but he is suppose to be doing what hes doing. It talks about people who run hollywood and describes them. again the bankers are suppose to be doing what they doing. conspiracy theorists like david icke or alex jones are doing what they suppose to be doing. satanists like alistar Crowley are doing what they were mearnt to do when they were alive. You can't really understand it at all without something and will be blinded totally even if you read the verses. You might as well read it backwards because you just won't understand it even if your told.

Jesus Christ is God.

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Old 05-29-2021, 01:56 PM   #504
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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I agree with all of the above. Well said!

As a result, I will endeavour* to not use the words moral, morality, immoral, ethics or ethical any more, since they never occur in my Bible. I will instead endeavour* to use the Bible words righteous, righteousness, sin and wickedness, etc.

*Using British spellings create the illusion that I'm more literate than I really am.
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I have never argued that religion translates into stronger moral behavior. I have never argued that religious people are more moral than non-religious people.

What I have argued is that God is the foundation of morality. I have argued that all persons are made in the image of God, and that all persons have a conscience and can, in varying degrees, discern right from wrong.
Well that lasted less than a month.
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Old 05-30-2021, 01:10 AM   #505
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Here are the Ten Commandments:

Exodus 20:2-17


This includes a command to keep the sabbath as a holy day, which it specifies as meaning that neither you, your family, or your business, are supposed to do any work on that day. While some Christian sects keep to this command (eg the Seventh-Day Adventists), few other Christians celebrate the Sabbath at all. Some Christians do believe we are supposed to treat Sunday as a holy day instead (although no mention of this is made in the Bible), but even here they typically do not think this includes a prohibition against work.
Should we really gloss over the "not coveting thy neighbor's slave" thingy. Obviously, the Bible is infallible. Which means the concept of owning a slave is not just allowed, but should not be accepted as so normal, that you should not feel jealous that your neighbor owns more of them.

If you take the Bible as the literal and infallible word of God you are evil, by definition.
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Old 05-30-2021, 03:03 AM   #506
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Well that lasted less than a month.
Hi, OP.

I believe the post you shared above was from the P&S Forum.

I was adopting the terminology already being employed in that thread (and a terminology I had myself been using all the time in that Forum), and didn't want to create yet another terminology derail.

I often get stuck finding a better word that collectively encompasses the Biblical notions of sin, righteousness, obedience, etc.

Appreciate your "eagle eye".

Maybe with some effort ill find a term actually in my Bible that collectively expresses those ideas. If you know of one, please let me know. Thanks.
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Old 05-30-2021, 06:04 PM   #507
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Should we really gloss over the "not coveting thy neighbor's slave" thingy. Obviously, the Bible is infallible. Which means the concept of owning a slave is not just allowed, but should not be accepted as so normal, that you should not feel jealous that your neighbor owns more of them.

If you take the Bible as the literal and infallible word of God you are evil, by definition.
You have a different definition of evil than mine.
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Old 05-31-2021, 02:25 PM   #508
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Maybe with some effort ill find a term actually in my Bible that collectively expresses those ideas. If you know of one, please let me know. Thanks.
"Thy will be done...." is something like obedience. But maybe a term less deprecatory sounding and more in line with what most theists believe: In harmony with God's will. I think that better captures the volitional element as well. Plus it'll give you a blocker for the problem of evil without sounding like theists are just blindly following orders.
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Old 05-31-2021, 02:44 PM   #509
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Re: Do you believe in God?

I don't find obedience as a bad term. It is difficult to adhere from my personal ecxperience. I think that the longer you are in a relationship with God the easier it is to obey, and so the more obedient you can become.
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Old 05-31-2021, 02:45 PM   #510
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Re: Do you believe in God?

I like the point about being in line with God's will.
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Old 05-31-2021, 11:13 PM   #511
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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"Thy will be done...." is something like obedience. But maybe a term less deprecatory sounding and more in line with what most theists believe: In harmony with God's will. I think that better captures the volitional element as well. Plus it'll give you a blocker for the problem of evil without sounding like theists are just blindly following orders.
As in: "Thy will be done. If thou choose to kill every fetus and child on earth, I support this as moral, holy, righteous and loving."
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Old 06-01-2021, 03:44 AM   #512
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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As in: "Thy will be done. If thou choose to kill every fetus and child on earth, I support this as moral, holy, righteous and loving."
And [Job] said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. - Job 1:21
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Old 06-01-2021, 04:37 AM   #513
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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And [Job] said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. - Job 1:21
Yes so if he created all and is omniscient he certainly has the ability and option to destroy any part of it. The question that you can't answer so glibly is why is his solution the same as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc?

Not can he do it, but why does he want to do it? Why does he want to kill every child and fetus on earth as a demonstration of love? The only defense is he doesn't exist and it's a religious myth. THAT makes perfect sense, whereas slaughter as holy, righteous, loving ... is way more than a stretch.
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Old 06-01-2021, 04:40 AM   #514
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Re: Do you believe in God?

Carl Jung is asked: "Do you believe in god?"


My take is that he regarded the formal religion's gods as stone cold projections. I believe he came right out and said this in, "Answer to Job," as only he could. The comment he made that is often cited is a little tricky as to what he meant, but very important. When answering this question: "Do you believe there is a god?" ... Jung took a step back I believe, and addressed something else. He said, "I don't believe, I know." This was a general statement about epistemology. (I believe his exact quote was: "I don't believe a thing. I know it.") As in, "I don't go around believing in things. I either think there is reason to consider it knowledge or I don't." So, putting it together, my opinion of what he meant is this .. conventional gods are manufactured by man, I don't operate on the faith standard, and yes there is a source that is exceedingly mysterious and mystical the seed of which is in our psyche.
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Old 06-01-2021, 04:26 PM   #515
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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He said, "I don't believe, I know." This was a general statement about epistemology. (I believe his exact quote was: "I don't believe a thing. I know it.") As in, "I don't go around believing in things. I either think there is reason to consider it knowledge or I don't."
Could be. But it also could be the statement of a mystic, which I suspect. For mystics, to 'know' means to experience, not knowledge or inference. The latter better fitting the notion of justified true beliefs that he may have denied holding in regard to the question.
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Old 06-02-2021, 02:44 AM   #516
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Yes so if he created all and is omniscient he certainly has the ability and option to destroy any part of it. The question that you can't answer so glibly is why is his solution the same as Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc?
Complex Question Fallacy. DUCY?

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Not can he do it, but why does he want to do it? Why does he want to kill every child and fetus on earth as a demonstration of love?
The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ.

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The only defense is he doesn't exist and it's a religious myth.
Pretty sure that's not the only defense.

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THAT makes perfect sense, whereas slaughter as holy, righteous, loving ... is way more than a stretch.
God loves justice and He loves mercy. You can freely choose which demonstration of God's love to accept.
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Old 06-02-2021, 03:48 PM   #517
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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God loves justice and He loves mercy. You can freely choose which demonstration of God's love to accept.
I think God loves Love more. In fact I don't think God loves the items you mentioned as anything other than a stopgap because without the fall neither justice nor mercy would obtain because neither injustice nor cruelty would obtain.

I get your point but it's more a point for Abrahamic religions et al in general. For Christians, imo, it's pretty much "Love one another...." and "Judge not....." full stop, with the rest of the NT being commentary to that. At the end of the day, while fighting evil sounds good, if people genuinely believe in an all-good ontology, fighting evil isn't fighting it; it's creating it (or rather the appearance of it since evil is not real).

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Old 06-02-2021, 06:28 PM   #518
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Re: Do you believe in God?

The objective understanding of God associated with goodness, justice, love etc is true but so is the subjective experience of God in the Book of Job. What is a higher truth than either of those (objective, subjective) is to hold both simultaneously as Job does and as Jesus does in his judgment of God on the cross (why have you forsaken me?).

There is danger in denying evil and the subjective since to deny those is to deny the desire for the Kingdom of Heaven as the highest desire that it is. This is the sin of the older brother in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. Because he has made the objective version of God total, he fails to see, as the younger brother sees, that he is being lied to and guarded from the Kingdom of Heaven.

In the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus talks about one becoming two and then two becoming one. To follow Christ is to become split and wrestle with the tension of holding the paradox. There was a reason why emphasizing the oneness was necessary two thousand years ago and so it’s not a surprise that the idea of splitting into two was suppressed, but it’s an undeniable part of the story.
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Old 06-03-2021, 12:34 AM   #519
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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Complex Question Fallacy. DUCY?

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ.

Pretty sure that's not the only defense.

God loves justice and He loves mercy. You can freely choose which demonstration of God's love to accept.
No ... the wages of being human is death, including for children and fetuses. ALL OF THEM, once upon a time. And that is a-okay with anybody adhering to this doctrine. Go ahead and kill them all, it's a function of grand love. I believe, I believe, I believe.

Why not just admit the thing breaks down upon inspection? It's one of the religions. When it attempted to declare itself the only valid one it was a pure market share move.
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Old 06-03-2021, 05:34 AM   #520
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Re: Do you believe in God?

<Wrong thread>
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Old 06-03-2021, 12:30 PM   #521
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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I agree with all of the above. Well said!

As a result, I will endeavour* to not use the words moral, morality, immoral, ethics or ethical any more, since they never occur in my Bible. I will instead endeavour* to use the Bible words righteous, righteousness, sin and wickedness, etc.

*Using British spellings create the illusion that I'm more literate than I really am.
This seems to imply that you are a moral nihilist - that you don't believe in morality as I'm using the term here. That is, you don't think there is any good reason to follow ethical rules for their own sake. You deny this however. So what is your view? Is there something about the act of murdering small children for fun that makes it wrong to do, or is it just that God told us not to do so?
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Old 06-03-2021, 02:25 PM   #522
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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This seems to imply that you are a moral nihilist - that you don't believe in morality as I'm using the term here. That is, you don't think there is any good reason to follow ethical rules for their own sake. You deny this however. So what is your view. Is there something about the act of murdering small children for fun that makes it wrong to do, or is it just that God told us not to do so?
I do not currently believe that there is any good reason to follow ethical rules for their own sake. So, I suspect that would make me a moral nihilist by your definition.

Could you please provide an example of an "ethical rule" that you believe that all persons ought to adhere to for its own sake. Thanks.
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Old 06-03-2021, 05:31 PM   #523
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Re: Do you believe in God?

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I do not currently believe that there is any good reason to follow ethical rules for their own sake. So, I suspect that would make me a moral nihilist by your definition.

Could you please provide an example of an "ethical rule" that you believe that all persons ought to adhere to for its own sake. Thanks.
Don't kill people purely for your own pleasure.
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Old 06-04-2021, 12:57 PM   #524
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Re: Do you believe in God?

If there are in fact people who get pleasure from killing people and refrain from doing it not because they are afraid of punishment, but rather simply because it is "wrong", then those people are superior to people who don't kill people because it is not pleasurable to them but would kill if it was, and they knew they could get away with it.
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Old 06-04-2021, 11:03 PM   #525
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Re: Do you believe in God?

"Superior to" wouldn't be my choice of words if you're referring to a lack of self-control since a genetic component may be in play, leading off into social Darwinism. On the other hand, something like, "temperance is superior to normative hedonism," probably wouldn't raise many eyebrows (since most people already believe that).
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