In the bible, Matthew 5:48, it says something to the effect of "be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect."

So then according to Christianity god is a perfect being. To be perfect implies that you have no needs, wants, desires, flaws, or any need to change at all from your state of perfection. Therefore god would have no need, desire, or any other reason to create us. But we do exist, therefore a perfect god cannot. Obviously a non-perfect god could still exist, but then the bible must be soundly rejected as the word of god, since it contains a mistake about god's nature(among countless other mistakes and contradictions but let's focus on this for now).

This argument probably has been made many times but it's been on my mind. Welcoming discussion.

I've heard it but I'm selling on it. The idea of being perfect doesn't really mean anything, and it certainly doesn't mean they don't have any social nature, i.e. wanting relation with other beings.

I have to disagree. To be perfect to me implies being perfect in all aspects including contentment. If a deity had a need for socialization, they are not perfectly content, and therefore not perfect.

Why would a perfect being not want to share or help? Perfect means nothing in this context. The argument is a fabrication of atheists trying to debunk god concepts (of course the "perfect" claim originates from theists, which also means nothing and is a fabrication). You been listening to Dillahunty?

We have a fundamental disagreement about what it means to be perfect. A perfect being wouldn't only not want to share or help, it simply wouldn't want at all. To have a want for anything implies that you are not in a state of perfection.

I don't know who Dillahunty is but if he's making this argument I'll check him out.

God in the "Christian context" is the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. As far as I know all three always existed. If that's true then God as a relationship between a Father (the Father) a son (Jesus) and the Father's spirit always existed. If I'm not mistaken everything is for the glory of God (the Father), from creation, to the devil's rebellion (and the rebellion of other angel's), to Adam's initial sin which lead to sin for all of us (and death), to the Father sending Jesus to die for our sins, to the salvation that is in Jesus, possibly even God's love for us and even the wrath that will be poured out on people who die without believing in Jesus' name. It's all done for God's glory. Perhaps at some point before creation there was the desire to do something for God's glory and this is it? The Bible says God is love (meaning the Father, I think), so I think it might be reasonable to think that this is what the Father and the Son are (Jesus said he and his Father are one). though Jesus is fully God and fully man, and maybe even the Holy Spirit, but I'm not sure there, so if all 3 have always existed, that loving relationship has always existed and they might have always done things with and for each other, but at some point maybe this is what they wanted to do or maybe this is what they always wanted to do? Just speculation, I guess, what happened before creation might be beyond our ability to comprehend. I think it's reasonable that God (the Father) could be perfect and still want for there to be creation.

Take the creation part out of it. Does that sentence make logical sense at all? How could a being which is in a state of perfection, absolutely flawless and eternal, have a want for anything? To have a want implies you are lacking something, but to be perfect presupposes that you lack nothing in any aspect. Perfect means perfect across all categories. Perfect intelligence, perfect happiness, perfect contentedness, perfection in all conceivable ways. Perfection wants for nothing because it already has everything.

There would never have been any impetus for a perfect, eternal being to change at all.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three separate beings, but also somehow one, makes no logical sense whatsoever either but I digress on that point.

I think it makes sense. God (the Father) could have desires and still be perfect, he's not an aluminum pole, he's a person.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, three persons, one God (though the Father might often be referred to as God in the Bible, if I'm correct, and by people too possibly). It's not that confusing.

Your thoughts are incorrect. God's a person now? I thought he was an eternal, all powerful being? He seems to just be whatever believers want him to be in the moment.

Ok... apparently I'm incorrect because you say so. He has a Son, he would obviously have feelings and wants and desires there (the want and desire for his son to be happy and be loved, etc.). Why would he not be a person?

I don't mean human being when I use the word person by the way.

Not because I say so, but because you believe a thing that makes no sense. I really don't know how many different ways I can explain it. In order to describe something as "perfect" that thing must be free of flaws and defects and 100% complete. Otherwise it is not perfect. If god has a want it implies he is not complete in some way and therefore not perfect.

I don't know why God couldn't act in a way where he was doing things he wanted to do without being in some kind of thing where it meant he was flawed in some way if he was perfect. I think you might see perfection in a way that is devoid from personal relationship and being a person with feelings and everything. God is the Father, he has a relationship with the Son, and the Holy Spirit is his spirit. They could have done things together for all of time without there being a flaw in any way, all the time experiencing wants and desires because there is relationship.

Maybe they have no wants in their relationship though and just do what pleases them? Once sin occurred I think that could bring about desires in God though without it making him flawed in any way.

Does god get angry at Jesus? Wouldn't that imply he is lacking in compassion and understanding, and therefore imperfect?

Does god get hungry? Certainly not because that would imply he is lacking sustenance and therefore imperfect right?

Does god get tired? I mean it just makes no sense. Why would an all powerful, perfect being get tired?


In the same way, for god to want for anything at all implies that he is lacking in some way and therefore imperfect.

Not necessarily. I think God might have only did what pleased him before sin entered the equation, after that he could want for things while still being perfect, in my opinion.

You can have that opinion if you want, but you're saying something completely nonsensical. It's like saying you think up could be down while still being up. The definition of the words shows that both things cannot be true. Maybe god should've given us better words to understand all this.

God could want for justice in some aspect of life because of sin and act on that want.

A god could surely, but not a perfect one, because to have any sort of "want" in any way whatsoever, means you are not perfect. Also justice for sin is ridiculous because he would never want for that unless he created us, but he never would need to in the first place, because again, perfect.

Ok, I think you are wrong about perfection in this regard.

Like I said I think God might have only did what pleased him before sin, I don't know if he "needed" to create us.

The thing is, I'm not though. At least not according to the definition of the word perfect.

Why would god need to be pleased? Shouldn't he be 100% content eternally, because of his perfection. He would have been content from the start and would have just continued on being perfect forever. You see how nonsensical this all is?

Ok... but what if God did what pleased him without needing to be pleased, but simply because it pleased him? Why wouldn't God be perfect if he wanted to enact justice on something?

You're talking about an infinitely powerful eternal being here right? Why would such a being do anything to please itself? It would just think, I am pleased and it would be so.

Enacting justice on what? Beings that it created out of no need, want, desire, or necessity in the first place? Why?

What's the issue with God doing things that pleases him?

God is just so he would want to enact justice if the circumstance called for it. Sure maybe on us. Because he felt the need to?

Well I clearly do not believe that.

A perfect god wouldn't have a need to do things that please him. What are you not understanding about perfection? He would already be perfectly pleased, perfectly happy, perfectly balanced in all ways. And since he is eternal right? He would have been eternally perfect. No need to create us, but you and I do exist, therefore a perfect god cannot.