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Did Man Create God? Did Man Create God?

09-11-2011 , 02:07 AM
By God, I meant human-resembling God.

Lets go through some facts I've numbered below. These are things you simply can't disagree on:
1) Organisms become fossilized when they die and we have fossils in the ground.
2) Fossils are placed in the ground in chronological order, with the oldest fossils the deepest.
3) We can estimate how old fossils are and see Earth's history as it's preserved in the ground.

We have estimated the earliest fossils to be 3.4 billion years old (3400 million). Furthermore, we have estimated the earliest fossils corresponding to modern humans to be 200k years old (0.2 million).

0.2/3400 = 0.000059 = 0.006%. In other words, humans have occupied this Earth for 0.006% of the time there has been life on this planet. If you scale the time life has been on this Earth to a 12-hour clock, modern day humans have appeared 2.5 seconds ago, and modern human behavior (art, music, games, fishing, burial) which started 50k years ago, is equivalent to have started less than 1 second ago.

Bottom line, humans are an extremely recent species, and we don't know if we'll last even the next "second." hommo erectus survived 1.6 million years, 8 times longer than we've been on this planet, before going extinct.

What's my point? According to some religions, God resembles man. It doesn't make sense...Why would God bring man on earth "seconds" ago, if the human-resembling God has existed eternally? Dinosaurs exited for well over a 100 millions years, over 500 times longer human beings have survived. Why doesn't God resemble a dinosaur?

So given how extremely recent human beings are, I ask, did a man-resembling God create man, or did man create man-resembling God?
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:50 AM
I think humans created the concept of god. Although I never really thought about it that way before... I think humans just love seeing visual perceptions of things. And all the famous paintings of the christian god I can think of are images of a shirtless, tall, muscular, white haired and white bearded human.
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09-11-2011 , 04:30 AM
Spoiler:
From the beginnings of human behavioural modernity in the Upper Paleolithic, about 40,000 years ago, examples of zoomorphic (animal-shaped) works of art occur that may represent the earliest evidence we have of anthropomorphism. One of the oldest known is an ivory sculpture, the Lion man of the Hohlenstein Stadel, Germany, a human-shaped figurine with a lion's head, determined to be about 32,000 years old.[3][4]

It is not possible to say what exactly these prehistoric artworks represent. A more recent example is The Sorcerer, an enigmatic cave painting from the Trois-Frères Cave, Ariège, France: the figure's significance is unknown, but it is usually interpreted as some kind of great spirit or master of the animals. In either case there is an element of anthropomorphism.

This anthropomorphic art has been linked by archaeologist Steven Mithen with the emergence of more systematic hunting practices in the Upper Palaeolithic (Mithen 1998). He proposes that these are the product of a change in the architecture of the human mind, an increasing fluidity between the natural history and social intelligences, where anthropomorphism allowed hunters to empathetically identify with hunted animals and better predict their movements.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthrop...ism#Prehistory


We created god, but it was in our benefit of course. Now that we have science and more importantly the computer, I see god's relevance and usefulness dramatically decreasing in the next 50-100 years..

Last edited by checkm8; 09-11-2011 at 04:40 AM.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 04:42 AM
Very few definitions of God would logically allow for God to resemble humans. Humans resemble God. In biblical terms, humans were created in God's image and likeness.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
Very few definitions of God would logically allow for God to resemble humans. Humans resemble God. In biblical terms, humans were created in God's image and likeness.
If p resembles q, then q doesn't resemble p?

Anyway, that changes absolutely nothing about my argument.
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09-11-2011 , 05:50 AM
Yes, but I think the distinction is important. That's why I pointed it out.

Anyways to address your position I would say that God existing without man is a function of God not needing man. The trinitarian God of the Bible is fully functional without us.

Also I think if your argument is based on number of years it's pretty weak. Eternity is a long time.

Similarly, I wouldn't walk up to a man in the maternity ward and question his fatherhood because he has been childless for 30 years and his child is only a few minutes old.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
Yes, but I think the distinction is important. That's why I pointed it out.

Anyways to address your position I would say that God existing without man is a function of God not needing man. The trinitarian God of the Bible is fully functional without us.

Also I think if your argument is based on number of years it's pretty weak. Eternity is a long time.

Similarly, I wouldn't walk up to a man in the maternity ward and question his fatherhood because he has been childless for 30 years and his child is only a few minutes old.
God doesn't need man,agreed, maybe you are right. A question arises, why did he wait for so long to create his best product?
As you said, you wouldn't question someone's fatherhood who been childless for 30 years and decided to reproduce when he turned 55, some obvious counter argument to this are.
a)maybe he had other prorities, eg:- career, work, other engagements
b)he didn't find a suitable partner
c)he faced problem such as poverty, stability in life etc.

As you can see, none of this or its interpretation when applied to God is valid.
Why did God wait for billions of years to create beings who he would love the most?Why didn't he feel the need to create the beings who will love him back the most?

The hard reality is that existence of God has no evidence whatsoever. Even if theists are able to produce even a third of the evidence that science has provided, we all would be able to give a ton of credit to them.
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09-11-2011 , 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfAces
<snip>

As you can see, none of this or its interpretation when applied to God is valid.
Why did God wait for billions of years to create beings who he would love the most?
God exists outside of time. Our concept of time is wordly; He exists eternally. Unless we were to ignore this commonly accepted characteristic of God, your question and your presumptions are untenable.
Quote:
Why didn't he feel the need to create the beings who will love him back the most?
As I suggested earlier, God is fully functioning without man. This includes love, worship, and the like. The trinitarian God of the Bible fulfills these roles in itself. If you don't accept the triune nature of God then this comes into question.
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09-11-2011 , 01:00 PM
To add to what KingofAces said,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
Anyways to address your position I would say that God existing without man is a function of God not needing man. The trinitarian God of the Bible is fully functional without us.
I wasn't saying or implying God required man.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
Also I think if your argument is based on number of years it's pretty weak. Eternity is a long time.
It's weak because I don't literally disprove the existence of a human-resembling God, but I do raise a question or give a new perspective to some.

Eternity is a long time, yet this planet has existed for finite time. Is God slow?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
Similarly, I wouldn't walk up to a man in the maternity ward and question his fatherhood because he has been childless for 30 years and his child is only a few minutes old.
God doesn't face the same restraints in creating life as humans do. Furthermore, non-human life has been on Earth for 99.994% of the time life has been on this planet, or for 99.996% of the time Earth has existed, humans haven't. Tell me, what's the purpose of non-human life roaming Earth for so, so long? What's the purpose of the dinosaurs roaming Earth for over 100 million years? Were they fertilizing the fields?
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 01:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by :::grimReaper:::
So given how extremely recent human beings are, I ask, did a man-resembling God create man, or did man create man-resembling God?
There is no logical connection between your question and its premise. Which did Edison resemble more, a light bulb or his later invention the phonograph?

By the way, when the Bible says man was made in God's image, it does not mean that man and God are similar in physical appearance.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 01:41 PM
Well I think a simple answer is that a bajillion bajillion years might not be a long time to God when considering Him existing eternally.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
Well I think a simple answer is that a bajillion bajillion years might not be a long time to God when considering Him existing eternally.
Sure, and even if God chose to wait a long time by his own reckoning, how is any human being supposed to know why? And what is the point of this line of speculation anyway?
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
God exists outside of time. Our concept of time is wordly; He exists eternally.
Prove it
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 01:55 PM
No u
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by :::grimReaper:::
By God, I meant human-resembling God.

Lets go through some facts I've numbered below. These are things you simply can't disagree on:
1) Organisms become fossilized when they die and we have fossils in the ground.
2) Fossils are placed in the ground in chronological order, with the oldest fossils the deepest.
3) We can estimate how old fossils are and see Earth's history as it's preserved in the ground.

We have estimated the earliest fossils to be 3.4 billion years old (3400 million). Furthermore, we have estimated the earliest fossils corresponding to modern humans to be 200k years old (0.2 million).

0.2/3400 = 0.000059 = 0.006%. In other words, humans have occupied this Earth for 0.006% of the time there has been life on this planet. If you scale the time life has been on this Earth to a 12-hour clock, modern day humans have appeared 2.5 seconds ago, and modern human behavior (art, music, games, fishing, burial) which started 50k years ago, is equivalent to have started less than 1 second ago.

Bottom line, humans are an extremely recent species, and we don't know if we'll last even the next "second." hommo erectus survived 1.6 million years, 8 times longer than we've been on this planet, before going extinct.

What's my point? According to some religions, God resembles man. It doesn't make sense...Why would God bring man on earth "seconds" ago, if the human-resembling God has existed eternally? Dinosaurs exited for well over a 100 millions years, over 500 times longer human beings have survived. Why doesn't God resemble a dinosaur?

So given how extremely recent human beings are, I ask, did a man-resembling God create man, or did man create man-resembling God?
Really for theists who believe the universe was created for humans the wait time is even more extreme since the universe is 14 billion years old.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concerto
By the way, when the Bible says man was made in God's image, it does not mean that man and God are similar in physical appearance.
If we're not taking "God created man in his own image" literally, then I ask, does life have a purpose? If there exists a dichotomy between human life and non-human life in terms of purpose, please make that clear.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concerto
By the way, when the Bible says man was made in God's image, it does not mean that man and God are similar in physical appearance.
That is the most beautiful thing about Bible imo, you are free to infer anything you want to fit the argument. Its so lol, anything that makes Bible look bad is said to be taken out of context.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
No u
Huh? You're the one who made a claim.. SO prove it.. Otherwise your claim is just a bunch of rubbish.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50
God exists outside of time. Our concept of time is wordly; He exists eternally. Unless we were to ignore this commonly accepted characteristic of God, your question and your presumptions are untenable.

As I suggested earlier, God is fully functioning without man. This includes love, worship, and the like. The trinitarian God of the Bible fulfills these roles in itself. If you don't accept the triune nature of God then this comes into question.
I don't agree that there is an entity which exists outside of time, but I will consider it for the sake of this discussion.

God is fully functional without man, so effectively we are of no use to him. There is no reason for him to love me anymore than my dog, since he doesn't needs our reverence and love etc etc.

If we matter no more than another animal species to God, why do we have to worship him? Why do we have to live according to his codes? Animals don't have that responsibility, why should we have that burden?
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by :::grimReaper:::
If we're not taking "God created man in his own image" literally, then I ask, does life have a purpose? If there exists a dichotomy between human life and non-human life in terms of purpose, please make that clear.
First you have to specify whose perspective you mean when asking about purpose. Also, I still don't see the logical connection you're trying to make between being made in God's image and having a purpose in life. God had a purpose for everything he created, including rocks. Human beings, from their own perspective, have whatever purpose they choose for themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfAces
That is the most beautiful thing about Bible imo, you are free to infer anything you want to fit the argument. Its so lol, anything that makes Bible look bad is said to be taken out of context.
I have no idea what you are talking about. The Bible, like almost every other written work in existence, has an intended meaning which its authors gave it and the reader is tasked to understand. One is not "free to infer anything" when reading the Bible. You just made that up. As for man being made in God's image not referring to a physical resemblance, this is clarified elsewhere in the Bible. For example:

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfAces
I don't agree that there is an entity which exists outside of time, but I will consider it for the sake of this discussion.

God is fully functional without man, so effectively we are of no use to him. There is no reason for him to love me anymore than my dog, since he doesn't needs our reverence and love etc etc.

If we matter no more than another animal species to God, why do we have to worship him? Why do we have to live according to his codes? Animals don't have that responsibility, why should we have that burden?
I think your logic is derailed from the get-go here. Why does someone or something fully-functional not able to find use in other people or things? I'm fully functional without a hat on, but that does not mean a hat is of no use to me.

Mankind has dominion over all other animals. There are many distinctions made between man the the rest of creation.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 02:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard-50

Mankind has dominion over all other animals. There are many distinctions made between man the the rest of creation.
You mean modern man/tool making man... Way before then we were the prey..
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 03:02 PM
Man created God.

The chances of simultaneously having a God who created the entire universe, and life, and man while also "divinely inspiring" the literary train-wreck known as the "Holy Bible" are zero.
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP
Man created God.

The chances of simultaneously having a God who created the entire universe, and life, and man while also "divinely inspiring" the literary train-wreck known as the "Holy Bible" are zero.
+1
Did Man Create God? Quote
09-11-2011 , 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP
Man created God.

The chances of simultaneously having a God who created the entire universe, and life, and man while also "divinely inspiring" the literary train-wreck known as the "Holy Bible" are zero.
Can you show the math leading to your statement of probability?

No, of course you can't.
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