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Did Jesus exist? Did Jesus exist?

02-05-2009 , 12:38 PM
Did Jesus exist?

What evidence is there for a man named Jesus who came from Nazareth. I was always told as a child that there was more evidence for Jesus existing than Julius Caesar. However through my own research I believe that what I was told to be false. There is no doubt that Jesus bares some similarity to other historic religious figures, however the evidence for this seems quite subjective.

So, is there any document written at the time of Jesus about the man anywhere to be found? preferably from unbiased sources such as a Roman or anyone without an incentive to enlarge the divinity of Jesus.
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02-05-2009 , 12:50 PM
There's a lot of stuff both pro and con on this on the Net. Josephus is the most famous but there are references in the Talmud and later Roman historians and scholars mention him like Tacitus.

My own personal theory is that God intends our first source though to be those who were intimate associates of Jesus and that's why the Gospels themselves are the best source.

I like The Testimony of the Evangelist assessment of the accuracy of the testimony:

http://www.bibleteacher.org/sgtestimony.htm
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02-05-2009 , 01:00 PM
Josephus as was Tacitus, however was born after Jesus' death. I am looking for writings from the period Jesus was alive. Jesus was supposedly a famous man who at least once stood in front of 5,000 people, surely someone from the time period must have written his name down somewhere.

Why would God wish to restrict our knowledge of Jesus to the New testament?
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02-05-2009 , 01:03 PM
Here is an interesting commentary:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jesusref.html

Quote:
From a historiography standpoint, this is mostly an 'academic' exercise, since the 'existence' of Jesus of Nazareth could easily be established with only a tiny fraction of our New Testament documents. The mere existence of someone in history is (often) easily established on the basis of small textual samples (sometimes even single paragraphs). The amount of data (especially historically 'incidental') we have about Jesus in the New Testament--and the appearances that the authors were not collusive--gives us a very, very high level of assurance in this matter.

Again, professional and academic scholars of the period -- Christian, Jewish, Secular -- accept the New Testament as an adequate witness, both for historical 'existence' and for many pieces of historical detail about Jesus.
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02-05-2009 , 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushinankil
Jesus was supposedly a famous man who at least once stood in front of 5,000 people, surely someone from the time period must have written his name down somewhere.
Among other things, you seem to assume that it was commonplace to write things down in an era when illiteracy was extremely common. It's not like there were daily newspapers or anything that would allow us to trace the information more closely.
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02-05-2009 , 01:09 PM
Have you read the Gospels OP?
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02-05-2009 , 01:14 PM
Here is another quick link referring to more than just the bible.

http://www.thedevineevidence.com/jesus_historicity.html
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02-05-2009 , 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
Among other things, you seem to assume that it was commonplace to write things down in an era when illiteracy was extremely common. It's not like there were daily newspapers or anything that would allow us to trace the information more closely.
Of course I did not think there was a 19th century invention in the times of Jesus and I understand that that the vast majority of the people Jesus spoke to would have been illiterate. I simply used that example to show that Jesus was supposedly a well known figure.

Surely after claiming to be the Messiah and causing much disruption in the Jewish community that eventually led to Pontius Pilate ending his life. Surely a ripple must have been sent somewhere which led to Jesus' name being written down.
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02-05-2009 , 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Have you read the Gospels OP?
Yes, I got full marks in a GCSE exam on Mark's Gospel when I was at school. I am looking for non-bible evidence, however.
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02-05-2009 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushinankil
Of course I did not think there was a 19th century invention in the times of Jesus and I understand that that the vast majority of the people Jesus spoke to would have been illiterate. I simply used that example to show that Jesus was supposedly a well known figure.

Surely after claiming to be the Messiah and causing much disruption in the Jewish community that eventually led to Pontius Pilate ending his life. Surely a ripple must have been sent somewhere which led to Jesus' name being written down.
There certainly was. There were people who cared very deeply that the events be recorded. But those are the same people you seem to have implicitly rejected:

Quote:
So, is there any document written at the time of Jesus about the man anywhere to be found? preferably from unbiased sources such as a Roman or anyone without an incentive to enlarge the divinity of Jesus.
Edit: Now explicitly rejected:

Quote:
I am looking for non-bible evidence, however.
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02-05-2009 , 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushinankil
Yes, I got full marks in a GCSE exam on Mark's Gospel when I was at school. I am looking for non-bible evidence, however.
And you didn't feel any divine immanence in the text?
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02-05-2009 , 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
There certainly was. There were people who cared very deeply that the events be recorded. But those are the same people you seem to have implicitly rejected:



Edit: Now explicitly rejected:

The Gospels were not written during the time of Jesus
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02-05-2009 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
And you didn't feel any divine immanence in the text?
Good read, didn't expect the ending.
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02-05-2009 , 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushinankil
Good read, didn't expect the ending.
That's not a direct answer to my question.
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02-05-2009 , 01:38 PM
Don't think it really matters whether or not Jesus actually existed - either he was a a man with an interesting philosophy or he is a myth.

the real question is why do so many people share the delusion that he died and then came back to life.
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02-05-2009 , 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic
Don't think it really matters whether or not Jesus actually existed - either he was a a man with an interesting philosophy or he is a myth.

the real question is why do so many people share the delusion that he died and then came back to life.
Its not a delusion. Just because somebody has something that you haven't got doesn't make it delusional.

One person can grasp physics another one cannot. It doesn't make the person who can grasp physics delusional.

A divine revelation is a mental act performed entirely within the mind; "a cognition is an immanent act of mind".

We simply recognize the immanence of God from the text then we go on to give flesh to that recognition.

It can be a very tiny intellectual act that connects to our minds and illuminates them. As the idea grows in our minds it later influences our will or actions.
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02-05-2009 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushinankil
Here we go again....

The gospels were written by people who were either witnesses to Jesus (Matthew, John) or as second-hand accounts through interviews (Luke) or as a scribe (Mark).

The type of account you are looking for does not exist.

Jesus' public ministry lasted about 3 years. Due to various dating conventions, this is something like 25-35 AD. See how many documents you can find that can actually be dated to that narrow window.
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02-05-2009 , 03:14 PM
I asked for:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushinankil
any document written at the time of Jesus about the man anywhere to be found? preferably from unbiased sources.
You replied with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
There certainly was.
I then gave you evidence for the Gospels not being written during Jesus’ lifetime
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushinankil
You then backtracked:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
The type of account you are looking for does not exist.
Surely you must then admit you were wrong. Unless of course you can provide me with evidence for your original statement then we can further the discussion.
Did Jesus exist? Quote
02-05-2009 , 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic
Don't think it really matters whether or not Jesus actually existed - either he was a a man with an interesting philosophy or he is a myth.

the real question is why do so many people share the delusion that he died and then came back to life.
Of course it matters, if it is possible to prove that Jesus did not exist then we can disprove Christianity absolute. If we can prove that Jesus did exist then it lends a lot of credence to the religion.
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02-05-2009 , 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
That's not a direct answer to my question.
Not a direct answer, no. But it implies that I felt that what I had just read was just a story, nothing special.
Did Jesus exist? Quote
02-05-2009 , 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W.
From a historiography standpoint, this is mostly an 'academic' exercise, since the 'existence' of Jesus of Nazareth could easily be established with only a tiny fraction of our New Testament documents. The mere existence of someone in history is (often) easily established on the basis of small textual samples (sometimes even single paragraphs). The amount of data (especially historically 'incidental') we have about Jesus in the New Testament--and the appearances that the authors were not collusive--gives us a very, very high level of assurance in this matter.

Again, professional and academic scholars of the period -- Christian, Jewish, Secular -- accept the New Testament as an adequate witness, both for historical 'existence' and for many pieces of historical detail about Jesus.
So, you definitely acknowledge that Achilles existed? And Gilgamesh?
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02-05-2009 , 03:46 PM
If I may, I'd like to shed some light on this thread. The original question is "Did Jesus exist?" and the answer is... Yes.
Jesus of Nazareth, known to His family and peers as Yeshua (literally meaning "God is Salvation"), was born, lived, and died exactly as the scriptures of Christianity record.
The question you have asked is the most important question you will ever ask in your life and it takes only a wise and thoughtful person to even consider it like you are doing. I commend you on that. If you would like to have an objective look at the hard evidence concerning the facts surrounding His life, death, and ultimately, His resurrection - I would highly recommend two books written by a renowned investigative journalist (a former atheist) who set out to settle this question for himself. The books he wrote were a result of this investigation. They are extremely informative and fascinating reads, not to mention highly objective. His name is Lee Strobel. His books are entitled "Case for Christ", which you should read first, and a sequel to that of sorts, called "Case for Faith". I think you will find all the information you are looking for and much more within them.
As far as convincing evidence goes outside of the gospels, my personal favorite is the lives of the disciples. These were 12 men who were from all different walks of life, several of whom were professional men of high standing in the community (look at Paul or Luke), who obviously were of very sound mind - who decided to DIE horrible deaths for their belief in the RISEN Christ. They were not under the impression that they were dying for a cause, or for a great spiritual leader, or even to secure a more favored position with God. They died because not only were they first hand witnesses to what is written in the Gospels, but had surely interpreted the happenings in exactly the same way that modern Christians have - That this man was in fact GOD. And that He died and was risen all for US out of His love for us. They saw His death, they were with Him after He was resurrected, and they knew without a doubt, even upon torture and death, that what they recorded was FACT. Every single disciple, save for one (John, in order that he might write the book of Revelations), were tortured and killed for this testimony. Now I ask you, if you were making something up, or even just slightly exaggerating it, would you go through that for what you were telling people? Would you give up your very life traveling everywhere to spread this story and then submit to being tortured and killed for it? And if on the off chance you were nuts and actually would do that for some unknown and unlikely reason, would 11 others do the same independently of you at different times and different places?
Any decent poker player can see that the odds of that are pretty slim.
Why would God choose to limit our knowledge of Jesus somewhat, rather than give our intellect all the satisfaction it craves - because He wants us to accept, embrace, and follow Jesus Christ out of our FAITH in Him, not our intellectual reasonings. If you seek, you will find all the intellectual satisfaction for believing that you will ever need. But you belief should build on FAITH FIRST, then He will open your eyes to confirmations of it. Start with those books and feel free to ask me anything that may help you in your discovery. May the God of our salvation bless you in your seekings.
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02-05-2009 , 03:57 PM
Quote:
These were 12 men who were from all different walks of life, several of whom were professional men of high standing in the community (look at Paul or Luke), who obviously were of very sound mind - who decided to DIE horrible deaths for their belief in the RISEN Christ.
Yeah, surely a few men can't be convinced of anything, its a good assumption to say they were of "very sound mind."

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02-05-2009 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushinankil
I asked for:

Quote:
any document written at the time of Jesus about the man anywhere to be found? preferably from unbiased sources.
The phrase "the time of Jesus" was interpreted in the usual sense, not in the way completely unique to you which is "during the life of Jesus."
Did Jesus exist? Quote
02-05-2009 , 04:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madnak
So, you definitely acknowledge that Achilles existed? And Gilgamesh?
What is standard that is being applied?

Last edited by Aaron W.; 02-05-2009 at 04:22 PM. Reason: Ugly wording
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