Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Deliver us from evil Deliver us from evil

02-17-2011 , 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtSF
By definition, one cannot be guilt of a crime before they are prosecuted.
Depends on what legal system you fall under.

In the U.S. you're innocent until proven guilty.

In France you're guilty until proven innocent.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KurtSF
By definition, one cannot be guilt of a crime before they are prosecuted.
Careless wording on my part. I have no objection to investigating the Pope and charging him with a crime if such is justified.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Depends on what legal system you fall under.

In the U.S. you're innocent until proven guilty.

In France you're guilty until proven innocent.
From wiki:
Quote:
In France, article 9 of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, of constitutional value, says "Everyone is supposed innocent until having been declared guilty." and the preliminary article of the code of criminal procedure says "any suspected or prosecuted person is presumed to be innocent until their guilt has been established". The jurors' oath reiterates this assertion.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 05:01 PM
Don't worry weatherhead, I'm sure Splenda just read that on christiansforfreedomfromfrenchjews.com and was a little confused. It happens quite often.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherhead03
From wiki:
I'm basing my statement above on the Napoleonic Code:

Code of Criminal Instruction
In 1808, a "Code of Criminal Instruction" (Code d'instruction criminelle) was published. This code laid out criminal procedure. The parlement system from before the Revolution had been guilty of much abuse; the criminal courts established by the Revolution were a complex and ineffective system, subject to many local pressures. The genesis of this code resulted in much debate. The resulting code is the basis of the modern so-called "inquisitorial system" of criminal courts, used in France and many civil law countries — though, of course, it has significantly changed since Napoléon's days (especially, with improvements of the right of the defense).

The French Revolution's Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen had declared that suspects were presumed to be innocent until they had been declared to be guilty by a court. A concern of Bonaparte's was the possibility of arbitrary arrest, or excessive remand (imprisonment prior to a trial). Bonaparte remarked that care should be taken to preserve personal freedoms especially when the case was before the Imperial Court: "these courts would have a great strength, they should be prohibited from abusing this situation against weak citizen without connections." However, remand still was the normal procedure for suspects of severe crimes, such as murder.

The possibility for justice to endorse lengthy remand periods was one reason why the Napoleonic Code was criticized for de facto presumption of guilt, particularly in common law countries. However, the legal proceedings certainly did not have de jure presumption of guilt; for instance, the juror's oath explicitly recommended that the jury did not betray the interests of the defendants, and took attention of the means of defense.

The rules governing court proceedings, by today's standards, probably gave too much power to the prosecution; it must be said, however, that criminal justice in European countries in those days tended to side with repression. For instance, it was only in 1836 that prisoners charged with a felony were allowed to have counsel (i.e. a lawyer) in England (the Prisoners' Counsel Act).[4] In comparison, article 294 of the Napoleonic Code of Criminal Procedure allowed the defendant to have a lawyer before the Court of Assizes (judging felonies), and mandated the court to appoint the defendant a lawyer if the defendant did not have one (failure to do so rendered the proceedings null).

Whether or not the assize courts, whose task was to judge severe crimes, were to operate with a jury was a topic of considerable controversy; Bonaparte supported judgment juries, and they were finally adopted. On the other hand, Bonaparte was opposed to the indictment jury ("grand jury" in common law countries) and preferred to give this task to the criminal section of the Court of Appeal. Some special courts were created for the judgment of criminals who could intimidate the jury.

Bonaparte also insisted that the courts judging civil and criminal cases should be the same, if only to give them more prestige.

The French codes today
The French codes - and there are now more than 40 of them[5] - are frequently amended, as well as judicially re-interpreted. Therefore, for more than a century now, all of the codes in force have actually been used in the annually revised editions published by Dalloz, Paris.[6] These editions are massively annotated with references to other codes, as well as to relevant statutes, judicial decisions (even if unpublished) and international instruments. The basic version of the Civil Code in this form, although compact, runs to nearly 3,000 pages; the "Méga" version is on paper and, even more extensively, on CD-ROM.



Also the Napoleonic Code extends to other countries and implementation would vary by country:

Codes in other countries
Even though the Napoleonic Code was not the first civil code and did not represent the whole of his empire, it was one of the most influential. It was adopted in many countries occupied by the French during the Napoleonic Wars and thus formed the basis of the private law systems also of Italy, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Portugal (and their former colonies), as well as Poland (1808–1946). In the German regions on the left bank of the Rhine (Rhenish Palatinate and Prussian Rhine Province), the former Duchy of Berg and the Grand Duchy of Baden, the Napoleonic code was in use until the introduction of the Bürgerliches Gesetzbuch in 1900 as the first common civil code for the entire German Empire. A number of factors have been shown by Arvind and Stirton to have had a determinative role in the decision by the German states to receive the Code, including: territorial diversity, Napoleonic control and influence, the strength of central state institutions, a feudal economy and society, rule by liberal (enlightened despotic) rulers, nativism (local patriotism) among the governing elites and popular anti-French sentiment.[7]

The Napoleonic Code was also adopted in 1864 in Romania (with some modifications), which is still in force as of 2006 (articles 461 to 1914). The Code was also adopted in Egypt as part of the system of mixed courts introduced in Egypt after the fall of Khedive Ismail. The Code was translated into Arabic from the French by Youssef Wahba Pasha between 1881-1883. Other codes with some influence in their own right were the Swiss, German, and Austrian ones, but even there some influence of the French code can be felt, as the Napoleonic Code is considered the first successful codification. Thus, the civil law systems of the countries of modern continental Europe, with the exception of Russia and the Scandinavian countries have, to different degrees, been influenced by the Napoleonic Code. The legal systems of the United Kingdom other than Scotland, as well as Ireland and the Commonwealth, are derived from the English common law rather than from Roman roots. Scots law, though also a civil law system, is uncodified; it was strongly influenced by Romano-Dutch legal thought, and — after the Act of Union 1707 — by English law. In the Gulf nations of the Middle East, the influence of the Napoleonic code mixed with hints of Islamic law is clear, even in Saudi Arabia (which abides more towards Islamic law). In Kuwait for example, property rights, women's rights, and the education system can be seen as reenactments of the French civil code. Some of these aspects can be seen in other Gulf states, although less pronounced than in Kuwait, this primarily being due to the democratic nature of Kuwait, rather than the absolutist nature of the rest of the Gulf nations.

The term "Napoleonic code" is also used to refer to legal codes of other jurisdictions that are influenced by the French Code Napoléon, especially the civil code of Quebec, which was derived from the Coutume de Paris, which the British continued to use in Canada following the Treaty of Paris in 1763. Most of the laws in Latin American countries are also heavily based in the Napoleonic Code, such as the Chilean Civil Code and the Puerto Rican Civil Code. Despite being surrounded by Anglo-Saxon Common Law territories, Louisiana's civil code has kept its Roman roots and some of its aspects feature influences by the Napoleonic Code, but is based more on Roman and Spanish civil traditions. As a result, the bar exam and legal standards of practice in Louisiana are significantly different from other states, and reciprocity for lawyers from other states is not available.

http://www.ask.com/wiki/Napoleonic_c...044#Penal_Code
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 06:38 PM
Better not see a doctor either , 44,000 to 98,000 deaths annually from medical errors (Institute of Medicine)
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 07:18 PM
Im not sure who you are referencing or what that is in reference to.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 07:47 PM
Some priests have harmed their parishioners so its not right to believe in Catholicism.
Some doctors have cut off the wrong leg so its not right to believe in medicine.
Some engineers have made poor bridges that killed people so its not right to believe in engineering.
Some poker players have cheated, so its not right to believe in poker.
What can we believe in? I'm curious if these analogies work.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 07:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerlogist
Some priests have harmed their parishioners so its not right to believe in Catholicism.
Some doctors have cut off the wrong leg so its not right to believe in medicine.
Some engineers have made poor bridges that killed people so its not right to believe in engineering.
Some poker players have cheated, so its not right to believe in poker.
What can we believe in? I'm curious if these analogies work.
All of these have the potential to do bad things - the question is how do they respond when they 'become aware' of the bad things? The catholic church did not acquit itself well (in my view - not from this documentary, just from general knowledge).

A paedophile priest doesn't reveal much about the catholic church - paedophiles are good at hiding. How they behaved once the problem came to light is where they are judged badly. When medicine (to take one of your examples) learns that a drug produces worse side effects than the symptoms it treats, they pull the drug. When a doctor continually botches operation, his registration is revoked.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 08:05 PM
Thanks for clarifying RLK.


Pokerlogist... lol?

I've FYP to make more apt analogies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerlogist
Some doctors have cut off the wrong leg, doctors say "we should do better".
Some engineers have made poor bridges that killed people, engineers say "we should do better".
Some priests have harmed their parishioners, Catholic church says "business as usual".
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 08:18 PM
Seems like with this line of reasoning someone would need to show that doctor's errors are usually discovered, are rarely covered up when detected, and are usually adequately punished. Based on what I know and read, none of these conditions can be srongly supported but maybe its a matter of opinion. Here's an excerpt from a publication that makes you wonder about the safety in medicine:


"Failure to Detect and Report Medical Errors Jeopardizes Patient Safety
October 4, 2010
Posted In: Informed Consent , Medical Malpractice , Tort Reform

By Collins & Collins on October 4, 2010 5:49 PM | Permalink
Studies have shown that the vast majority of medical errors go unreported. This is the case despite laws requiring the reporting of medical errors. The laws are intended to improve patient care while reducing the huge number of medical errors that occur each and every day in hospitals throughout the country.

The laws were drafted with the intent of identifying and reducing medical errors through reporting requirements on doctors, nurses and staff. By identifying the medical errors, remedial action to avoid future similar errors is possible.

Unfortunately, there appears to be a disconnect in the medical community. A study from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services suggest that 93 percent of serious medical errors go undetected. The report is generous in its explanation for reporting failures. In fact, it seems near impossible that 93 percent of serious medical errors would go undetected in the absence of professional incompetence on an astronomical scale. Instead, the errors go unreported. "

Don't mean to derail the thread.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 08:20 PM
I'm new here myself, but near as I can tell RGT threads are derails.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-17-2011 , 08:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerlogist
Seems like with this line of reasoning someone would need to show that doctor's errors are usually discovered, are rarely covered up when detected, and are usually adequately punished. Based on what I know and read, none of these conditions can be srongly supported but maybe its a matter of opinion.
I think there needs to be no cover up and there needs to be appropriate action when taken (ie your second two criteria). I think the medical community does well here (speaking of the Australian experience, anyhow). If anything, not enough protection is provided to doctors when patients make spurious complaints in my opinion.

However, I think it's harder to compare 'detection rates' across disparate activities, nor to infer a failure if one group or other has a low detection rate. Some industries are easier to hide errors in than others, imo. I don't know that engineers would have a good 'detection rate' of errors in bridge construction, for example. It seems to me the approach is to over-design everything with massively inflated 'safety multipliers' in the expectation that such buffers will prevent any oversight from resulting in serious consequences. I don't know how often an engineer would get halfway through a bridge before realising that it would fall over the moment a car drove across or something. I think their detection rate is probably pretty low, but their incidence rate is negligible so it doesnt matter.

In audit, there's a general principle that areas of high risk should be intensely scrutinised whereas low risk areas can be satisfactorily assessed through an audit of process and procedure - I think a similar principle would apply here. In my view, the prevalence of abusive priests coupled with the severe breach of trust and ability to inflict harm would require the church adopt a 'high risk audit approach'. As it was, I think they were more concerned with PR than morality when the stories began to make the news.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-18-2011 , 03:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I'm basing my statement above on the Napoleonic Code:
Not exactly sure what in that wall of text you were referencing. European Convention on Human Rights and French Revolution's Declaration of the Rights of Man say that you are innocent until proven guilty
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-18-2011 , 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherhead03
Not exactly sure what in that wall of text you were referencing. European Convention on Human Rights and French Revolution's Declaration of the Rights of Man say that you are innocent until proven guilty
There's a difference in the way a Napoleonic system and a common law sytem of law work.

In a Napoleonic system there is less room for human judgment to come into play.

Presumption of innocence is somewhat deceiving. Obviously you couldn't be arrested unless someone thought you were guilty of something whether or not the system presumes you are guilty until proven innocent or innocent until proven guilty. The way a system can arrive at either conclusion can be very different.

Mexico right now is rather Napoleonic:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...261338318.html
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-18-2011 , 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
snip
Are you capable of admitting you were wrong, or made a mistake? You made the wrong statement that in France you are presumed to be guilty until proven innocent. I told you how and why that is wrong. You then bring in the Presumption of innocence, which is present in both US and France, and try to explain how it can be deceiving...which doesn't have anything to do with your initial claim. Both countries act using the presumption of innocence, period. Bringing Mexico into the picture isnt helping your case against France either.
Deliver us from evil Quote
02-18-2011 , 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherhead03
Are you capable of admitting you were wrong, or made a mistake? You made the wrong statement that in France you are presumed to be guilty until proven innocent. I told you how and why that is wrong. You then bring in the Presumption of innocence, which is present in both US and France, and try to explain how it can be deceiving...which doesn't have anything to do with your initial claim. Both countries act using the presumption of innocence, period. Bringing Mexico into the picture isnt helping your case against France either.
You're insisting on literalness when there's clearly a difference between the civil and the common law systems.

I'm rusty on the different legal systems but it's not identical.

Perhaps you'll take the word of a UK attorney:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9010932AAytwFt

If not you can study the difference here which discusses the dichotomy between the Latin presumption of guilt and the Anglo-American presumption of innocence. Read the footnotes in particular on the first few pages:

The Presumption of Innocence in the French and Anglo-American Legal Traditions, Francois Quintard Morenas

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcon...intard_morenas
Deliver us from evil Quote

      
m