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Old 01-12-2009, 05:12 PM   #26
PacoPaco
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Re: Dear Erf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butcho22 View Post
LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!!!
Theist sharing is really no different from atheist sharing is it?
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Old 01-12-2009, 05:37 PM   #27
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Re: Dear Erf

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Originally Posted by PacoPaco View Post
Theist sharing is really no different from atheist sharing is it?
Sure. Just like if an atheist wanted to say something to one specific poster they should use the PM system.
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Old 01-12-2009, 06:39 PM   #28
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Re: Dear Erf

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Originally Posted by Hopey View Post
1) You made a big heartfelt post about how this forum was causing you to lose faith and that losing faith would cause you to slide back to your "old ways".
Just so this post remains truthful I have to correct you on some things. I never said I was in fear of sliding back to my old ways. That's completely irrelevant but still wasn't true.

Quote:
2) The vast majority of posters in this forum -- atheists and theists alike -- responded with words of encouragement and various statements of goodwill. The overall consensus was that if your faith is what is keeping you from backsliding in life, than you should leave this forum and maintain your faith.
Yes, the overall consensus was just that. But what you seem to be forgetting is that almost every post by an atheist was left with this tiny little jab at me. One that took what would have been a heartfelt response and turned it into a mockery.

Quote:
3) You then returned a few days later to announce your return. In your return you made a comment that amounted to a slap in the face for every atheist who responded with words of encouragement in your good-bye post. You made a comment about us showing a lack of character in your time of need, or something of that nature. You completely ignored the fact that most of us were trying to be supportive of you. Instead, you decided to take the low road by misrepresenting the nature of our replies to your good-bye post. In other words, you were being an ass.
I think it was more like:
Quote:
I also wish to thank the others (particularly the atheists) who responded the way they did. For the character of those responses reflected not only directly on you as individuals, but also the beliefs that you hold.
And I got that from:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigErf View Post
And when I question, I lose my faith.
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Originally Posted by luckyme View Post
well, let's not have any of that.

good luck.
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Originally Posted by nittyit View Post
whats your next username? gl erf
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Originally Posted by Hopey View Post
Erf, I can assure you that I'm not the devil.

However, after reading what you wrote, I agree that it's probably a good idea if you stopped posting here. You've had difficulties in life in the past, but apparently have been able to use religion to get through your troubles. I'd hate for you to lose your faith and then use that as an excuse to go back to your old ways -- especially since you've mentioned on more than one ocassion that you have a child.

For many people, blind faith is more important than seeking out the truth. You're obviously one of these people.

Good luck!
When I first read this Hopey I thought wow, that was nice of you. And then I got to the part that I have bolded and it blew it all away.

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Quote:
Very good post Erf and I truly wish you the best of luck. You present an interesting question, one that I have pondered myself. Is the lack of faith a luxury only a few can afford? I hope not.
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Originally Posted by luckyme View Post
....and why do so many enjoying that luxury in northern Europe and Australia? More prosac available on health plans ?
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Originally Posted by RoundGuy View Post
Do you know everything there is to know? How will what you learn tomorrow affect what you believe today? You have no idea.

Are you so certain that you know absolute truth, that you are willing to shut out anything, any evidence, any suggestion, that you are wrong? Are you willing to bet your soul on it?

If so, I truly pity you. You are the definition of a closed mind.....
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Originally Posted by Butcho22 View Post
This is not really true. You've repeatedly said that you'd rather not think about things too deeply, blah blah.

I feel sorry for you just like RoundGuy said in his post. You need to wake up and seek the truth. Not bury your head and just try to feel good by thinking a false god will make everything better.

In the end, I wish you the best whatever you decide.

P.S. We atheists really get our strength from orange juice and smelling salts. Without them we are nothing.

Point is it's truly a personal decision if you're going to allow yourself to be happy or not. My mom is a devout christian, yet she is one of the most miserable people I've ever met. Yet she'll swear to you that without god she couldn't be as strong as she is.

We get it. You feel like living this one life isn't enough and you feel better thinking you're going to live on afterwards.
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Originally Posted by Subfallen View Post
BigErf -

You might try to pay more attention to how thoughts and emotions happen to you, and less attention to what these feelings and images seem to say.

This change of awareness will make you a better father, because it will make it easier for your daughter to trust and understand you. Your daughter doesn't need to hear that God loves her or (much less) that God demands her obedience. She needs a father whose love gives her the freedom to accept herself, even as she begins the eternity of self-disappointment and self-delusion we call 'life.'

Which is, in fact, merely that ***** preceding death.

Edit - and, yes, God is a superstition, but that is one of the smallest surprises along the long road of serious skepticism.
Now Subfallens post wasn't necessarily a knock against me, just really bad advice.

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Quote:
Good luck Erf. Reading the bible will instill new faith into a troubled soul. Reading this forum will turn you into a Hopey if you're not real careful.

No insult intended Hopey.
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Originally Posted by Hopey View Post
Meh, I've read the bible and this forum. Apparently this forum is more powerful than the bible.
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Originally Posted by teh_mewse View Post
Your God does not exist. I am of sure of this as I am of anything. I see no reason to placate you or be friendly towards your beliefs. I am sorry for your troubling times but your passage is more of a display of religious human psyche than a noble withdrawal from debate. Religion thrives on its ability to create a near perfect barrier for honest inquiry, and this is the only reason why such a ridiculous belief has been held by so many for so long. I ask only that you do not indoctrinate your children with your worldview. Best of luck with the anxiety.
So ok Hopey, maybe I should state it again:
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I also wish to thank the others (particularly the atheists) who responded the way they did. For the character of those responses reflected not only directly on you as individuals, but also the beliefs that you hold.
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:21 PM   #29
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Re: Dear Erf

This was the final line in your big melodramatic farewell post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigErf
I don’t want to think that God doesn’t exist. My life would be worse if I didn’t believe. I can Accomplish anything with Him and this has to end with me being stronger then the devil. So, I’m out.
*That's* what lead me to write:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopey
For many people, blind faith is more important than seeking out the truth. You're obviously one of these people.
I was basically agreeing with what you wrote in your final sentence, you just don't realize it.
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Old 01-12-2009, 07:40 PM   #30
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Re: Dear Erf

It must have been your reputation that hurt you Hopey.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:11 PM   #31
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Re: Dear Erf

My advice was good, even if you intend to remain religious. Your daughter cannot separate the literal imagery of religious doctrine from its actual content, which is just the emotional hand-rail it offers to your unstable self-image.

For example, believing in Hell can cause a child real misery, although for you it just a way to feel an (ironically) childish pleasure at the idea that your social/intellectual superiors will someday be the ones under the whip.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:21 PM   #32
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Re: Dear Erf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subfallen View Post
My advice was good, even if you intend to remain religious. Your daughter cannot separate the literal imagery of religious doctrine from its actual content, which is just the emotional hand-rail it offers to your unstable self-image.

For example, believing in Hell can cause a child real misery, although for you it just a way to feel an (ironically) childish pleasure at the idea that your social/intellectual superiors will someday be the ones under the whip.
Just out of curiosity, what were the other surprises along the road of serious skepticism that you had in mind?
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:40 PM   #33
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Re: Dear Erf

That was a sloppy comment, as I was conflating scientific skepticism with mystic skepticism. (The context suggests science, but I was primarily thinking of mysticism.) In particular, experiencing non-self. I am an utter novice at this skill, but have found even small successes to be very surprising.

"Surprising" is probably not the right word for scientific skepticism; maybe "counter-intuitive" is better? But a much steeper learning curve on this skill...I'm not sure if I possess it at all, so maybe it IS surprising! Hah.

I added the edit because I can remember the precise moment I lost all belief in a personal God. The surprise was very mild; it was much more a "F*** me I'm stupid...how didn't I see this before?" moment.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:41 PM   #34
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Re: Dear Erf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subfallen View Post
My advice was good, even if you intend to remain religious. Your daughter cannot separate the literal imagery of religious doctrine from its actual content, which is just the emotional hand-rail it offers to your unstable self-image.

For example, believing in Hell can cause a child real misery, although for you it just a way to feel an (ironically) childish pleasure at the idea that your social/intellectual superiors will someday be the ones under the whip.
Just another example of why I said what I did.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:49 PM   #35
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Re: Dear Erf

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Originally Posted by BigErf View Post
Just another example of why I said what I did.
You said what you did because, by explicitly pointing out our pettiness to yourself, you feel justified in ignoring us.

Yes, we're petty, but you are still dishonest and delusional to deny that we have all the evidence in the world on our petty, human side---while God has...nothing.

Edit - God is a superstition. Period. In other news, 2+2=4.
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:50 PM   #36
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Re: Dear Erf

Quote:
Originally Posted by Subfallen View Post
That was a sloppy comment, as I was conflating scientific skepticism with mystic skepticism. (The context suggests science, but I was primarily thinking of mysticism.) In particular, experiencing non-self. I am an utter novice at this skill, but have found even small successes to be very surprising.

"Surprising" is probably not the right word for scientific skepticism; maybe "counter-intuitive" is better? But a much steeper learning curve on this skill...I'm not sure if I possess it at all, so maybe it IS surprising! Hah.

I added the edit because I can remember the precise moment I lost all belief in a personal God. The surprise was very mild; it was much more a "F*** me I'm stupid...how didn't I see this before?" moment.
Ah, okay. I was just hoping to get a head start on my other irrational beliefs, that's all .
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Old 01-12-2009, 09:55 PM   #37
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Re: Dear Erf

I don't believe there is a pre-condition for teaching kids about hell early but this could vary by family beliefs and sects.

I have a very religious friend who told me somewhere's in the NT that persuasion is also a means of conversion. Plus a lot of people/kids just perceive God as a benevolent being from the outset. (Its much better to explain God's benign attributes to children first.)

I've also never heard a child express fear about hell. Of course, its possible there are exceptions but I don't think its something they spend as much time thinking about as a non-believer thinks they do.

I think its a mistake to group all kids together and all religious teaching together.

There are many doctrines in the bible and in the world in general and parents have the option of picking the time and place of when to introduce them.

Of course, sometimes other or older children upset the apple cart.
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Old 01-12-2009, 10:30 PM   #38
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Re: Dear Erf

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Originally Posted by PacoPaco View Post
I don't believe there is a pre-condition for teaching kids about hell early but this could vary by family beliefs and sects.

I have a very religious friend who told me somewhere's in the NT that persuasion is also a means of conversion. Plus a lot of people/kids just perceive God as a benevolent being from the outset. (Its much better to explain God's benign attributes to children first.)

I've also never heard a child express fear about hell. Of course, its possible there are exceptions but I don't think its something they spend as much time thinking about as a non-believer thinks they do.

I think its a mistake to group all kids together and all religious teaching together.

There are many doctrines in the bible and in the world in general and parents have the option of picking the time and place of when to introduce them.

Of course, sometimes other or older children upset the apple cart.
Well, yeah, there's a lot of variance in natural empathy, so believing in hell will be a nightmarish struggle for some people, and will make other people feel more secure and even oddly triumphant. (The latter end up as Calvinists, I've noticed.)

But a child in the former group will feel much more confused by people in the latter group than he needs to. Why? Because the child will think the answer to his confusion is somehow tied up in the doctrine of Hell. And of course it's not---it's just simple psychology, people are different.

All religious doctrines (not just hell) have this effect. They abstract emotional realities into the world of doctrinal debate; therefore preventing anyone from seeing the situation clearly.

I mean, I could just go on forever about why children shouldn't be indoctrinated into moralistic religion. It's the only topic in the world I think I'm worth listening to about.
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Old 01-13-2009, 12:10 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by PacoPaco View Post

Oh btw m all your scriptural arguments are invalid from my theist perspective because without an indwelling of the Spirit you can't divine scripture accurately enough to construct valid arguments.

The Spirit alone is what qualifies us for understanding it rightly.
What do you mean by 'valid' and 'invalid'?

An argument's validity is unaffected by the arguer's personal characteristics. A raving lunatic can posit a logically valid argument, just as a genius can present utter twaddle. 'Perspective' is irrelevant to validity.

You have to point out the structural weaknesses of an argument to show that it is invalid. What you have said amounts to a simple Ad Hominem fallacy.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:07 AM   #40
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Re: Dear Erf

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Originally Posted by Funology View Post
What do you mean by 'valid' and 'invalid'?

An argument's validity is unaffected by the arguer's personal characteristics. A raving lunatic can posit a logically valid argument, just as a genius can present utter twaddle. 'Perspective' is irrelevant to validity.

You have to point out the structural weaknesses of an argument to show that it is invalid. What you have said amounts to a simple Ad Hominem fallacy.
This is a whole nother ballgame.

What you're saying could apply in the natural world but my post above refers to the spiritual world described in the bible and those rules are different from the world's.
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Old 01-13-2009, 01:38 AM   #41
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Re: Dear Erf

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This is a whole nother ballgame.

What you're saying could apply in the natural world but my post above refers to the spiritual world described in the bible and those rules are different from the world's.
Oh, I see.







...WHAT?!
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Old 01-13-2009, 04:49 PM   #42
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Re: Dear Erf

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Well, yeah, there's a lot of variance in natural empathy, so believing in hell will be a nightmarish struggle for some people, and will make other people feel more secure and even oddly triumphant. (The latter end up as Calvinists, I've noticed.)

But a child in the former group will feel much more confused by people in the latter group than he needs to. Why? Because the child will think the answer to his confusion is somehow tied up in the doctrine of Hell. And of course it's not---it's just simple psychology, people are different.

All religious doctrines (not just hell) have this effect. They abstract emotional realities into the world of doctrinal debate; therefore preventing anyone from seeing the situation clearly.

I mean, I could just go on forever about why children shouldn't be indoctrinated into moralistic religion. It's the only topic in the world I think I'm worth listening to about.

Well people get better and better at pushing each other's buttons. One of the benefits/drawbacks of the switch from a labor agrarian economy to a white collar "more time on our hands" economy.

I'll even concede many evangelical figures get better and better at manipulating this and we even have people out there sowing the "feel good doctrines" in order to reap more contributions.

That still doesn't lessen the power of the word of God. It has power even in the wrong hands, in fact, the bible specifically states that such will be the case. The truth is always the truth even in unscrupulous hands.

Also people frequently think they have to "add" something. Its our "saleman" mentality today. If they stopped and thought about it they'd know the eternal is always the eternal and there's no need to embellish it.
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Old 01-13-2009, 08:35 PM   #43
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Re: Dear Erf

in after lock.........???
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Old 01-13-2009, 09:23 PM   #44
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Re: Dear Erf

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in after lock.........???
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She requested a perma-ban this time. I wonder what her new name will be?
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Old 01-13-2009, 10:45 PM   #45
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Re: Dear Erf

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It won't be a copycat of SMP. You'll be able to proselytize all you want in the new forum. You won't need to back up your assertions with facts, and won't have to worry about whether or not your arguments are sound.

The problem is that you *think* that these "rules" have always been true for SMP. In reality, the only reason that you've been able to get away with what you've gotten away with over the last year is because the moderators had all disappeared and nobody was left to enforce the rules.



I've been warned by Zeno for being too mean to certain posters. Zeno isn't just singling out the theists. Your feelings of persecution are completely unwarranted.

for once, hopey is right. philosophy discussion and religious discussion are two very definable and separable entities.

furthermore, religion does not belong in a core sciences forum. there are only sparse instances where religion and philosophy/psychology intertwine, producing intense and unresolvable debates/tardoffs that disrupt other discussions.

with that being said, when religion does get its own subforum, it will no longer be necessary to continue to post threads that do nothing but tout the validity of evolution. it will be assumed that evolution is a valid scientific theory, and therefore, any thread that serves no other purpose but to validate evolution will be interpreted as another form of religious prostheletyzing and should be immediately locked and/or moved to the religious forum.

of course, any threads initiated to discuss differring viewpoints of evolutionary theory would be acceptable, but it would be incumbant of the SMP mods to make determinations of which threads fall within these guidelines. personally, from past experience, mods of this forum have not been able to moderate in a manner that is non-partial between Theists and atheists, but with the addition of the religious forum, i think that much of the religious haranguing that goes on in SMP can be alleviated. and if mods continue to remain inpartial, nasty tardoffs will continue to reign (who the fkk knows, maybe that is what people really desire, internet tardoffs)

lastly, why the fkk hasn't the religious forum been created yet?
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Old 01-13-2009, 11:22 PM   #46
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Re: Dear Erf

I am new to this forum but here is my take on the situation.

SMP = science, maths and philosophy.

Theists will always have an extremely difficult time in a forum where logic is a foundation of all subjects discussed. This is largely as a result of religious beliefs being entirely illogical. The sooner posters such as PacoPaco and BigErf have some sort of believers forum where they can blindly lead each other around in circles the better as far as the potential for continued quality discussion in SMP goes. You guys can discuss that twisted library of **** that apparently contains the word of your lord until Jesus himself returns to reward you for flying in the face of all the "dawkinites" who have been representing the devil this whole time.
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Old 01-14-2009, 12:28 AM   #47
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Re: Dear Erf

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Originally Posted by Ultim8Degen View Post
lastly, why the fkk hasn't the religious forum been created yet?
The new forum should be up and running within a day or two, possibly less.

Patience please.


1/14/09 edit

I have move this thread to RGT from SMP so this discussion can continure if so desired.


-Zeno

Last edited by Zeno; 01-14-2009 at 06:05 PM. Reason: Added wording
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