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Old 03-08-2019, 05:37 AM   #51
tame_deuces
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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Originally Posted by / / ///AutoZone View Post
globalism/multicultualism creates the need to lock our doors.
boomers love to reminisce about those days, and they're the ones took them away.
Well, nationalism certainly has the cure for doors.

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Old 03-08-2019, 05:42 AM   #52
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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We can add "reasonableness" as a qualifier as is done in criminal law.
It's possible, but I do also think the two sides in a war will generally disagree on what constitutes as "reasonable".

We could of course assume we can find someone who is relatively unbiased, but the idea of an "independent adjudicator" puts the idea of moral relativity to the test in itself.
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Old 03-08-2019, 06:49 AM   #53
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

you're probably one of these clowns that claims there's a difference between democratic socialism and socialism, but no difference between nationalism and national socialism.
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:50 AM   #54
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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you're probably one of these clowns that claims there's a difference between democratic socialism and socialism, but no difference between nationalism and national socialism.
People who carry out imaginary debates in their own mind will likely find no shortage of clowns.
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Old 03-25-2019, 09:50 AM   #55
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

Well, now that the useless tangent seems to have died out... I'll return to the discussion at hand.

I find myself in disagreement with a lot of the sentiment in this thread. I do not find reason to justify the killing of the young missionary.

I can understand why it happened, I can even accept that visiting this tribe is a bad idea and even a needless risk, but even with all that I can't see the killing as justified.

The reason is not overly complicated. If I accept this killing as justified a long the lines of some argument based on relative morals, it seems to be a very slippery slope. What gives some small group the justification for killing that should not apply to other groups? Should a small commune in my country suddenly be justified in declaring their territory? Should a small nation be justified in killing a peaceful visitor?

The fact that a small isolated hunter-gatherer tribe is not directly comparable to some random group in our more interwoven society is not lost on me. However, our history isn't exactly empty of people who has espoused the virtue of returning to "ancient times" and aggressively pursued dogmas that lead to murder and mayhem.

I can even accept that perception and past history has led the tribe to believing they acted in self-defense. But for wrongful perception to justify killing seems like a thin argument. At best in the ethics I believe in, such misunderstandings could perhaps lead to a classification of killing from "murder" to "manslaughter". And the crime seen as less severe, does not mean it is excused.

At the end of the day I think killing a visitor is wrong. I can understand that there are cultural views that see it differently, but I can't see them as justified. It seems like an aggressive and destructive view.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:42 AM   #56
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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I can understand why it happened, I can even accept that visiting this tribe is a bad idea and even a needless risk, but even with all that I can't see the killing as justified.
I tend to agree.

I wonder if maybe some people saying it was justified mean in essence that they don't think there should be any retribution for it, or that they don't think the US should attempt to prosecute it as a crime. Because I also agree with that, but I think the question is separable from whether or not the killing is morally permissible/justified.
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:59 AM   #57
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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I tend to agree.

I wonder if maybe some people saying it was justified mean in essence that they don't think there should be any retribution for it, or that they don't think the US should attempt to prosecute it as a crime. Because I also agree with that, but I think the question is separable from whether or not the killing is morally permissible/justified.
I agree with that and that is the basis of my reasoning. I haven't considered retribution / prosecution, but merely whether I could see the killing in itself as justified.
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Old 03-26-2019, 03:31 AM   #58
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces View Post
Well, now that the useless tangent seems to have died out... I'll return to the discussion at hand.

I find myself in disagreement with a lot of the sentiment in this thread. I do not find reason to justify the killing of the young missionary.

I can understand why it happened, I can even accept that visiting this tribe is a bad idea and even a needless risk, but even with all that I can't see the killing as justified.

The reason is not overly complicated. If I accept this killing as justified a long the lines of some argument based on relative morals, it seems to be a very slippery slope. What gives some small group the justification for killing that should not apply to other groups? Should a small commune in my country suddenly be justified in declaring their territory? Should a small nation be justified in killing a peaceful visitor?

The fact that a small isolated hunter-gatherer tribe is not directly comparable to some random group in our more interwoven society is not lost on me. However, our history isn't exactly empty of people who has espoused the virtue of returning to "ancient times" and aggressively pursued dogmas that lead to murder and mayhem.

I can even accept that perception and past history has led the tribe to believing they acted in self-defense. But for wrongful perception to justify killing seems like a thin argument. At best in the ethics I believe in, such misunderstandings could perhaps lead to a classification of killing from "murder" to "manslaughter". And the crime seen as less severe, does not mean it is excused.

At the end of the day I think killing a visitor is wrong. I can understand that there are cultural views that see it differently, but I can't see them as justified. It seems like an aggressive and destructive view.

This is where my accusations of hypocrisy came from. You cannot defend the tribesmen for wanting to prevent people from entering their territory, and condemn others for wanting to prevent people from entering their territory ( yes, you can have a debate on exactly whos territory is what, but thats a different discussion).
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:06 AM   #59
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

I never condemn others for wanting to prevent people from entering their territory. I think all the countries on earth should have the right to stop people from entering.


I can think that and think my country should have opened boarders without being a hypocrite. I can even be for the goal of a no boarders movement where countries can join but countries who dont want to can keep people from entering their boarders.

Last edited by batair; 03-26-2019 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 03-26-2019, 04:25 AM   #60
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

As far as the tribes people like i said i dont think im in position to judge. They see outsiders as a dangerous enemy. And for all i know they think that for good reason. Every time in their history they encountered outsiders they probably had death and war. Their people have been taken before. Their population has gone down. And people still today steal what they see as their resources which causes even more hardship.

Really i dont know why we cant respect just one time the rights of isolated populations to be left alone if thats what they want.


Btw aliens if you are reading this we should not be let into the galactic federation of planets because we wont follow the prime directive. Among other things.
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Old 03-27-2019, 06:17 PM   #61
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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I never condemn others for wanting to prevent people from entering their territory. I think all the countries on earth should have the right to stop people from entering.


I can think that and think my country should have opened boarders without being a hypocrite. I can even be for the goal of a no boarders movement where countries can join but countries who dont want to can keep people from entering their boarders.
So you support the people in the US who want restrictions on, or no, immigration?
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Old 03-28-2019, 12:20 AM   #62
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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So you support the people in the US who want restrictions on, or no, immigration?
It is not hypocritical or inconsistent to think a country has a right to restrict immigration while at the same time thinking it is immoral or unwise for them to do so.
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Old 03-28-2019, 03:50 AM   #63
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Re: A dead missionary, an isolated tribe and morals

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So you support the people in the US who want restrictions on, or no, immigration?
Define support. If you mean i think they should have a say in our democratic system to vote for what type of immigration they want sure. If you mean i cant have a different opinion and have to support theirs no.
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