OK, this is my first thread, and it kinda ties in with some of what has been going on with other threads, but presents some new angles as well.

It's for atheists, theists and everyone in between, I'm not looking to push my own clandestine agenda or rubbish anyone's views or start a flaming war, I'm being open and reasonable and genuinely asking people what they think about this stuff, cos it's mighty interesting.

Without further ado...

The current standard model of the cosmos relies on two major and apparently impossible-to-prove theoretical constructs to work: dark matter and dark energy.

As I understand it, both dark matter and dark energy are crucial and very significant forces in our universe, and also necessary for the standard model of the cosmos to fit in more or less perfectly with all the observed and observable evidence. Crucial, significant and filling up more space in the universe than the things that can be seen to exist, even permeating them extensively, yet simultaneously invisible and impossible to prove the existence of, and without which our knowledge of how the universe works gets flushed down the pan.

Atheists: these "dark" forces are obviously very mysterious, do you have any problem accepting their existence, and if science could never prove or even come any closer to proving their existence than it can now, would you start to wonder if the standard model maybe didn't need revising?

Theists and those with a mystical bent: do you have any thoughts relating to your particular beliefs or views with regards to dark matter and dark energy, and their role in the universe?

Open thread, talk away...



Hnzy

Why is this the case?

If the scientific consensus is that dark matter is a strong possibility, the I'll go along with that. I'm not at all qualified to really form an opinion on it given the high level formulations that have lead to its surmised existence.

Do I have any problem wondering if the standard model didn't need revising? I would be absolutely shocked if these same scientists weren't trying to revise and refine it with every experiment and calculation they do!

It Isn't.

Not a problem for atheists....they can just admit to the possibility thier brains arn't wired to grasp it.

45 second video

I go with what the scientists say, because they're the ones that have study cosmology, and i do not.

It's not really possible to "prove" much of anything. But to the extent that it is possible to establish a claim, it seems very possible to establish the claims of dark matter and dark energy.

It doesn't bother me that much of the universe is made of stuff we don't understand well. I don't think we understand much in general, and that the real fundamental pillars of reality are always going to be inaccessible to us.

We simply have no ****ing clue.

I would tend to agree with madnak.

Dark matter and dark energy are invisible and physically undetectable. No hard evidence for them exists. How is it not the case that they are impossible to prove?



Hnzy

First, because you're probably not looking at proof right. We can only "prove" mathematical formulas. With everything else we talk about levels of confidence. I understand there are calculations which show the strong possibility of dark matter. I also understand that some scientists believe they can show actual dark matter. Aren't there a bunch deep in a mine shaft somewhere trying to do just that as we speak (or did that experiment fail, I heard about it a few months ago.)

But in any case, how can you state with any degree of certainty what is impossible to discover?

Wait, what? I said the opposite of this.

Epistemology!

Physical evidence exists for dark energy and dark matter.

Dark matter can be mapped using a technique called gravitational lensing.


The increasing rate of expansion is evidence of dark energy.

i have no strong beliefs either way about dark matter or dark energy. or really, any beliefs. i would need to study a lot to come up with a valid opinion on the matter. and i dont care that much.

No, I don't have a big problem with accepting that there are theories that are admitted to be theoretical which poses an intriguing, yet not yet researched enough explanation as to why certain factors of the universe does not seem to quite fit the current physics theories that have also never been claimed to be "complete".

It would be a big problem if somebody claimed dark matter told them you shouldn't take the name of dark matter in vain, however.

Do they have any way of assessing if matter changes shapes?

Not insofar as I am an Instrumentalist. For the moment, "dark" matter and energy are simply stopgaps that help us fill in some of the holes in our theories. There is nothing wrong with this if they are useful for making accurate predictions about future states of existence. Whether or not they are "real" is another matter.

We were separated at birth.... this is what I was going to say but you did it better so I'll just say "ditto"

They've been at it for 3 or 4 years and still no banana.

Isn't dark energy the theoretical necessity that explains universal expansion in relation to the standard model, as opposed to universal expansion being proof of dark energy, as such?

Sort of, if I understand your question correctly. Universal expansion doesn't "prove" dark energy anymore than irregularities in Saturn's orbit proved the existence of Uranus. The observation had to follow the math.

Why would one's being an atheist or a theist have anything to do with the science? The universe was formed 13.7 billion years ago. About 200 million years later the first stars turned on. 4.4% of the universe is ordinary atoms, dark matter 23 percent and the rest dark energy.

But if the universe was formed 20 billion years ago and the first stars turned on a billion years later and the percentages of atoms, dark matter, and dark energy were different, why would that effect one's religious attitude?

Isn't the universe still in the process of being formed?