Quit being obtuse. Just because it has been proven that intelligences other than God can create life does not mean God was not needed.

Suppose Venter created an intelligent bacterium which in turn created its own bacterium. The fact that the intelligent bacterium can create life would not negate its need for Venter to have existed.

Thanks, been wanting to use this.

We also need whatever made us (abiogenesis). This is not the point. The point is that this shows that life can occur without a God. Do you agree on that?

Yeah making matter out of nothing is totally what I was talking about there.

ELAN VITAL - did it slip into this cell that Venter created? You know, the 'life force' that people babble about. This essence that all living things have? Did it get into this cell and it's progeny?
Alternative medicine often depends on tinkering or influencing this 'life force', we need to know if this cell has it or if it's not really alive but just a zombie cell, like the zombie people that "soul" believers imagine.

lol

Just to clarify I did not say this. If you could create human life (a la Planet of the Apes) I would consider the christian God to be falsified, to some extent.

You say here:
Are you talking intelligence possessed by some type of organic/physical being? AI machines don't count?

No, I don't think that IA would count. If you could create AI with free will, I think that it would definitely have some implications, but I am not 100% to what extent.

If the universe is eternal we do not need abiogenesis. The existence of life can be eternal in an eternal universe.

No....as Notready's story points out in order to truely create life from scratch one must first create the universe.

I don't see why humans can't do anything that "nature" can in principle.

So much for mom's "scratch cakes", she is so proud of them.

So the more people learn about how to create life and maybe intelligence without magic or anything supernatural, the more it will confirm your view that the bible is correct? And if we can't do it, it is because we don't have the supernatural powers of god, clearly explained in the bible?

When atheists get crushed trying to attack belief in God they fall back to attacking belief in the bible.

I have found your posts itt to be some of the most illogical I have ever read. I am genuinly curious as to why my restatement is laughable to you given what you have actually wrote.

Stop changing the subject. We are not discussing what made the non-life things and the origin of the universe and everything. We are discussing the fact that when there is matter(you say god made it, I say there was a big bang - this is not the issue) life can occur without a God? Do you agree now or will you change the subject again so I must clarify yet another thing?

RTB's podcast on this:

http://reasons.edgeboss.net/download...sh/podcast.xml

Edit: About 45 minutes.
Rana thinks this is worth a Nobel.

This does not change the probability of God in either direction. As long as the definition of God includes that six year old boy from another dimension.

Sorry to jump in to the argument, but isnt there a middle point where one could accept that God made matter and the big bang? (what I believe) Science and a belief in God need not be at loggerheads. In you concede that this belief is not a contradiction then there is no reason why the creation of life from matter should really have any impact upon the belief in God.

The impact on religion is a different issue perhaps, but to me there is no conflict here at all between a simple belief in God and a belief in the possibilities provided to us by science and our environment.

free will to do what? how many options will they need to have for you to consider it "free"?

I was going to ask something like this. Do you need to have 5 senses to have free will?

Very very few theists have a definition of god that includes that. So your post is irrelevant.

The ability to choose otherwise without it being random. See my exchange with eddie in this thread, starting towards the end of the first page.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...e-will-762055/

LOL! Oh my God, the big fat over inflated EGO of mankind. What a joke!



First of all, NO ONE and I mean NO ONE on this earth is able to create SOMETHING from NOTHING.

They use the word create, but they do not know what the word create means, it means: To bring into existance something from nothing.

Only God can do this, all others can only FORM or MAKE something from something else that already has existed in the physical realm.

You guys are so entertaining to me sometimes, its almost better to read the silly stupid things that get posted and watch you all stick you foot in your mouth than to just tell you that your are wrong.

I am an artist by trade and so many artist do the same thing, they say "look at what I created". I have to bite my tongue not to say back to them that they created nothing, they just formed or made something.

Its the ego of man, that has to be the all smart and wise one. Its just the nature of man to want to stamp himself as the creator of things, but its not the way things really are.

But very few atheists think the six year old is likely either. So they both have to change their probability estimates.