"based on the weights"

You forgot to bold that part Jib.

Nothing in here says anything about being able to choose otherwise given the exact same variables. This is just stating how sophisticated the programmed choice is. The computer is making a choice based on an algorithm, albeit a very sophisticated algorithm, but it is not different than something like this,

[PHP] if (module_exists('vertical_tabs') && function_exists('vertical_tabs_add_vertical_tabs') ) {
vertical_tabs_add_vertical_tabs($form);
$form['save_above']['#attributes']['class'] = 'js-hide';
}
else {
drupal_set_message(t(i have no free will), 'status', FALSE);
}
[/PHP]

Only much more complicated. My websites are full of these, do my websites have free will?

The human brain fits into this category as well.

[php]
if ($itch_quantity > 0) {
echo "scratch it";
} else {
// do nothing
}
[/php]Evidence (besides what the Bible says) for why the human brain is not also a computer with complicated algorithms?

Based on weights means nothing. That's just a calculation. Ultimately the decision is made randomly, which excludes it from being a free will decision.

The brain does not fit in, as even if I have a scratch, I still do not have to scratch it. I have the choice not to.

I think that we have experiential evidence that we make free will decisions.

Try not scratching it next time. See how long you can go.

Also, I bet you scratch 90% of your itches without even realizing it. Where's the free will in that?

Unless you feel all choices are 50/50, human decisions are based on weights as well.

I am sure your right that most of the time I scratch without knowing, but what difference does that make? I also breath without choosing to breath. No one ever said that if free will exists that every single thing that you do must be a free will decision. In fact I have said quite the opposite.

Sure, humans weigh things. But ultimately even if everything externally is being weighed one way, I do not have to go that way. I have the ability to not go that way. The computer on the other hand does not. If must go with how it is programmed in all cases.

I don't follow. Let's say we're 70/30 on a decision and a computer is 70/30 on a decision. Anytime before the final choice is made, either the human or the computer can choose otherwise. Once the final choice is made, there are no more choices.

You're trying to insert something special in there that differentiates one decision making process from the other. Where is it and what is your evidence for it?

jib,

i'm with OH that the brain fits nicely with the definition you gave.

how can we possibly know a different choice could have been chosen when it comes to humans?

we only get one shot at it. there is no going back. even if we replicate the exact scenario and chose something different (i.e. order an ice cream cone - one time we eat it, the next we throw it away), how can we know we could have done differently?

all you have here is "the bible told me so"

FYP

Strings need to be enclosed in quotes.

What do you mean "we're 70/30 on a decision?"

And the computer cannot choose otherwise, jut like my website cannot choose to not display something if the comparative statement is met.

which is fine as long as you admit it

I'm pretty thankful for automated processes fwiw. The body, whether we disagree whether it is designed or not, is pretty sophisticated and contains some complicated control systems (well complicated to my mind anyway).

Itching is a weird one, its 1/2 unconscious, like you're saying. You can control it, but you don't exactly. Kind of like breathing, although that's more like the 90% automated number you're talking about imo.

Let's get something straight here, the bible is not my reason for believing in free will, and there are many atheists that believe free will exists. Care to go over to SMP and tell Durka that his only justification for believing free will exists is the bible? I think that I would pay to see that!

You are right that we cannot prove after the fact that we could have done differently. Like I said before, out evidence is experiential. I experience myself having the ability to make my own decisions. It is prima facia true.

What is your evidence that our choice is deterministic? I would expect this world to look much different if in fact we did not have free will. More similar to the animal kingdom.

I will ship you $5 on stars to start a thread in SMP telling DurkaDurka that he only believes in free will because the bible told him so and without it he has no reason to believe it's true.

I never said the bible is the only reason you believe in free will, now did I? I said it's the only reason you chose to assert that a computer's decision making process cannot be the same as ours.

The fact that we've never seen anyone undo a choice that's already been made seems like a good one. I'm not saying I'm 100% that we don't have some form of free will, just saying the information out there seems to lean the other way.

stars name is: Butcho22 location: Scottsdale

I have not said that it cannot be, only that none of the examples that you have provided are examples of a computer having free will. Remember, this started with me stating, something to the effect of "if you could create AI with free will it would have major implications"

What do you mean by the bolded? I am not following what this has to do with whether or not the choice that was made was free or not.

Sent, I am a man of my word.

can you provide us an example of a computer that would have free will?

I mean there is no way for us to ever prove who's right or wrong on this. It certainly appears we have free will, just as it appears the chess computer has free will.