To add to that, in my experience most people who are atheist or subscribe to some sort of “non” religion usually were some religion at one part of their life and denounced their faith.

For example I have a friend who is atheist and yet was very religious for the first 2/3 of his life.

As would be expected in majority religious countries, where children appear to almost always join the religion of their families by default.

But in more secular countries, growing up without any religious beliefs is the more typical experience (e.g. just ask the other Euros in this forum).

Back to your point, I suspect that a great number of the more vocal anti-theist atheists (meaning, those who are particularly outspoken against religion) were more likely to have been negatively affected by early religious indoctrination.

Contrast to a non-religious upbringing in a secular environment and I think you'll find atheists are mostly apatheists (if you've not heard this, a great label, imo, it means that religion is of no concern or consequence to them - earning the apathy prefix!).

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Deadfish,

Judaism places more emphasis on practice than belief. For example, if you're born of a Jewish mother, you're Jewish. That's it. You don't need to believe in the Torah to be Jewish.

I married into a Reform Jewish family. My wife is an atheist and teaches Sunday School. I am an atheist and am just fine raising my daughter Reform Jewish. I would not be fine raising her Christian, Muslim, or anything else that leads her to believe things that are, imo, not supported by evidence. The lessons my wife teaches in religious school aren't meant to be taken literally, aren't meant to be seen as "god-inspired", or any of that. It's more akin to Greek mythology--like, this is our mythical history as a people.

Orthodox Jews are more of the believing type. Still, a Jew is a Jew, and my wife would be welcomed into an Orthodox congregation as long as she practiced Orthodox customs. As would I if I went through with a conversion.

I believe conversion is more stringent because what you DO matters more than what you BELIEVE. With other religions, you can just choose to believe something and be done with it.

Hope this helps.

Yeah, this is the norm around where I come from.

Your typical atheist won't care and for that matter most religious people won't care much either. I'm sure you have couples living together who has no idea if their significant other is an atheist or a theist.

Being overtly or vocally religious is very rare, though it is perhaps increasing a bit, in part due to immigration, in part due to the marriage between the populist right and religious conservatives. Still, using religious reasoning in an everyday context or as an argument in debate would be met with very surprised looks in most contexts.

Religion almost never creeps into mainstream politics or public discourse. Unless you are in a fringe party, your chances at getting elected wouldn't move an inch due to lack of religion. For the most part you won't even know if a given politician is religious or not, and it is not something that interests me in the slightest. In that sense I'm probably a very typical voter around here.

Its not a fact. You cant use part of the narrative or story in order to prove the story

why does he have to? He makes the rules. I dont think its just to condemn someone to eternal torture for not believing, for example.

Its not coherent at all. God makes the rules, including what a sin is, and what the punishment is, and what the "escape clause" is.

Also, even if its coherent, it doesnt give it any extra weight or authenticity. You could claim that lots of fiction or fantasy novels are coherent, doesnt mean they are true ( no, I am not equating the bible with fiction or fantasy, necessarily, just pointing out that coherency does not give authenticity)

Other religions could also make the same claims you just made.

Would you be willing to concede that if the God of the Bible is real you would be guilty of sin?

Have you ever done anything that you thought was wrong? If there is a God who is just doesn't it make sense that he would punish you? Do you think it follows that a God who is able to give you water when you're thirsty or food when you're hungry would also know what is what when it comes to what's just? He might not seem just to you, but think about how great a glass of orange juice can be when you're parched. Does it make sense that a God who can create that experience for you would not also have justice completely figured out? Not only that, but everything? So here we are, all guilty of sin, and what does God do? The Father gives His Son and the Son dies a terrible death so disfigured that He's not even recognizable as human anymore (if I'm getting Isaiah 52:14 right) so that we can be with God forever and not have to face the punishment we rightly had coming to us. That's mercy on full display, is it inconceivable that that same God is just?

By the way I think torment might be the right way to describe it instead of torture.

Wtf is wrong with you miserable nits? There are PMs and an entire ****ing forum. Why must you insist on debating itt?

Moths to a flame.

I tried to strongly discourage this from the beginning but I guess people will just be people.

Im not sure what all this stuff about orange juice has to do with anything? God created a refreshing drink, therefore he is all knowing and all just? I dont think that holds, logically.

again, I dont think not believing, or not being able to believe should be punishable by eternal "torment". I do not think that is at all just. You can try and claim that "god just knows better", but then why arent you out stoning unruly children, or not wearing linen and cotton together, or any of the myriad other things that god has commanded you to do?

Because you know that that is not just, either.

I think the things your referring to might have only applied to Old Testament Jews (maybe all or some during a certain time frame, and possibly others or everyone else living during the same time period as them).

how convenient. So theres nothing in the bible that you dont do/follow then?

Muslims know God of the Bible very well; they think 'Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are 3 in 1 Trinity, and Jesus had to die for our sins' is illogical and historically wrong. Orthodox Muslim belief is Jesus ascended to heaven on the cross without dying. Reiterating 'no, but you don't understand, Jesus is God but also separate, and He died for our sins...' is very unlikely to change their beliefs.

Wiki has a list of religious intiation rites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religi...itiation_rites
Apparently Islam does not have specific intiation rites.

Thats the phrase!

Initiation rites!