umm... yes?

wow so many lol dumb posts itt

Wow.

This thread is a perfect example of why the Jehovah of the Old Testament is a "god" to be despised -- certainly not one to be worshipped.

"God gives people choices in life and each choice has direct result of what you do in accordance with Gods will.

"Okay so lets take that number 33 million people died due to God or did they die due to the choices they made in life, did they accept Gods will or did they reject it? If they rejected it after hearing what could happen to them then way would it be Gods fault?

"People have a mindset of "Why did God let them die" this thinking is totally wrong God didnt let them die, they died based on the choices they made, God warned them what could happen some of which is writen in the bible. Now I cant describe each case for each person in 33 million but I am sure at some point they heard the word of God and totally rejected it, mocked at it, laughed at, questioned it or doubted it so how does God get through to these people? He takes an exterme action."

And people actually want to worship this God?

"God killed the first born of the Egyptian people who did not accept his word, this action was only a re-action to them by not accepting the warnings that God had so clearly demonstrated to them and warned them that this would happen if they didnt let his people go."

Was Egypt a participatory democracy wherein the majority of the inhabitants voted to keep the Jews under their yoke? Why not just punish the leaders of the country who were responsible for its policies? Assuming that the 9/11 terrorists had a strong case to be made about U.S. foreign policy, should the victims in the World Trade Center have been punished?

andy, stop being so logical, it scares the theists.

"Look you are living in sin and you have rejected me as being God of all things, you mock, laugh at the people who I have sent (like Moses) to teach you the word of God but still you refuse to accept it, what most I do to make understand?"

Kill me, obviously. Mocking and laughing are grave, grave crimes, they should be punished by death, followed by an eternity in Hell. As is living my life by my own rules instead of yours. That's exactly what the radical Islamists claimed should be the fate of the cartoonists in Europe who had the temerity to mock their religion. Death is the answer.

Only theirs was only an idle threat. Yahweh follows up on his threats of mayhem.

The Egyptian parents with young first born childern I am sure are looking out for the best intrests of that young child so knowing what is going to happen would they not choose to accept the truth that this is the one true God.

Its the equivalent of a parent today not putting on a seatbelt on a youg child and putting them in the back seat dispite all the warnings and dangers that will happen if the car crashes. The young child has free will and according to your above reasoning its okay for them not to wear a seatbelt if they so wish to or is it the responsibility of that parent to look out for the welfare and the best intrest of that child.

God created you. Now if a young child turned to his mum and dad mocked them, laughed at them and totally rejected them in every way I am sure that his mum and dad would punish him in someway to change that behaviour.

Now acting this way to God i.e. not accepting God, his punishment is eternity in Hell, its the only sin he cannot forgive.
Your assuming that the Jews actually took up arms and killed the first born of the Egyptians they didnt, they didnt do anything. God killed them because the parnets rejected Him and the warnings that God provide.

He should of just blinked them to the promised land it would of saved a lot of grief.

you are seriously delusional that its becoming concerning. this is not an insult, because i am really concerned for your mental well being. have you even read the bible before? if so, i have no idea how you reached this conclusion besides making **** up.

This would result in having no free will.

okay..................I am pretty sure that after 9 other plagues had come true after Moses warning them that maybe just maybe they would take this into consideration, weigh up the facts and past history that they would..................................maybe accept that this might also come true.

It was a joke, but threatening to kill my child to get me to conform doesn't leave much room for free will either.

sooo moses was able to warn every single egyptian? wow, he's better than santa claus!

and maybe if god didn't harden pharoah's heart no one would have died. ah, good 'ol all-loving, free-will providing god.

You have freewill to drive on the other side of the road but you wouldnt do that because you know that there would be a chance that you might put yourself in harms way. I mean I could be wrong maybe you want to put yourself in harms way and totally reject all the warnings that you cleary have seen and do it anyway and decide "I got freewill I can do what I want" which you can, but you got to weigh up what might happen if you do.

wtf does that have to do with anything? please answer these questions and stop derailing the thread with pointless comments:

1. Did Moses warn every single Egyptian about the coming of the angel of death and how to save your first born?
2. Did the Egyptian people have any control over the discussions between moses and pharoah?
3. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart multiple times?
4. Have you ever read the bible?

1. Did Moses warn every single Egyptian about the coming of the angel of death and how to save your first born?

Word of mouth? This I am not sure about, the bible does not go into detail of how Moses explained to each Egyptian. I could only give my reasoning, like the Jews were slaves of the Egyptains so they would see the Jews marking their doors with blood from a lamb and ask why are you doing this etc...

2. Did the Egyptian people have any control over the discussions between moses and pharoah? - No but why would this matter.

3. Did God harden Pharaoh's heart multiple times?

According to the bible God hardened his heart and goes on to say that for this very reason I have raised you up.

4. Have you ever read the bible? - Yes

maybe pharoah didnt want slaves, but god took his freewill and hardened his heart

I am using an a very simple example to try explain what God was asking them to do and what he is asking you to do now. I will try and replace the words the best I can.

You have freewill to drive on the other side of the road (i.e. to accept me as God or to reject me) but you wouldnt do that because you know that there would be a chance that you might put yourself in harms way (i.e. if you dont I will kill the first born of each family or send you to hell).

I mean I could be wrong maybe you want to put yourself in harms way and totally reject all the warnings that you cleary have seen and do it anyway (i.e. and choose not to accept Gods word after him showing 9 plagues before or reading the bible and not accepting what it says) and decide "I got freewill I can do what I want" (i.e. living in sin and doing what you want to do and not Gods will)

thanks for the answers, hopefully we can continue this conversion in a more friendlier and straight forward manner. My basic point is this:

1. It is clear in the Bible that moses ONLY told the jewish people about putting the blood on their doors. This does not seem like a very effective way to give the Egyptians a chance to spare their children if you really wanted to give them a chance. Do you agree or disagree?
2. It is clear that God *wanted* the egyptians to suffer:
How do you interpret these verses?
3. You talk about free will a lot, but God clearly impeded the free will of pharaoh by hardening his heart. In addition, he impeded on the free will of millions of Egyptians by forcing these plagues on them and kill them (and their children) WITHOUT giving them any chance to avoid it. Do you agree or disagree?

you realize that this ONLY applies to pharaoh who had his heart hardened by God, right? You realize that the conversations between moses and pharaoh were just that, CONVERSATIONS BETWEEN MOSES AND PHARAOH. the people of egypt had NO IDEA that the plagues were a direct result of pharaohs hardened heart. They had *no* opportunity to avoid the plagues/suffering/death, and in fact as i have pointed out, God *wanted* them to suffer and die so that they would that he was God and that he meant srs business.

I would agree that this is not a very effective way to give the Egyptians a chance but in the same way they have been affected phyiscally by the other 9 plagues i.e. their crops have been destoryed, their water ruined etc so I can only assume that there would be absolut panic in the country going on and people asking questions and I can only assume that there are local goverment bodies that were to exaplin to people that this was caused bt the Jewish God and that Moses was in talks with Pharaoh. I can assume that word spread throughout the country that if we do not set the Jewish nation free their God will kill the first born of the family. Now the Jews lived amongst the Egyptians they would see what the Jews were doing and again ask questions and word would spread. Again this is only my reasoning none of this can be proved.

No it applies to anyone who heard it. It applies to everyone today - anyone who has heard of the bible and choosed not to read it, or heard a person talking about Jesus and not looked further into it saying things like "Its a bunch of BS" once they hear and do nothing they are rejecting the teachings of God.

With these verses, Exodus Chapter 8, V15 and V33, Exodus Chapter 9 V34, V35, 1 Samuel Chapter 6 V6.

8:12 And Moses and Aaron went out from Pharaoh: and Moses cried unto the LORD because of the frogs which he had brought against Pharaoh.
8:13 And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and the frogs died out of the houses, out of the villages, and out of the fields.
8:14 And they gathered them together upon heaps: and the land stank.The Third Plague
8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart (refering to Pharaoh), and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said

8:30 And Moses went out from Pharaoh, and intreated the LORD.
8:31 And the LORD did according to the word of Moses; and he removed the swarms of flies from Pharaoh, from his servants, and from his people; there remained not one.
8:32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go

9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servant
9:35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses.

1 Sam 6:6 Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? when he had wrought wonderfully among them, did they not let the people go, and they departed?

The Jews did not live *among* the egyptians, read the Bible:

"Throughout Egypt hail struck everything in the fields--both men and animals; it beat down everything growing in the fields and stripped every tree. The only place it did not hail was the land of Goshen, where the Israelites were. "

Most atheists on this board have been Christians before. They reject the "teachings" of God because they are not logically consistent, and its downright insult to our intelligence (and actually sad and pathetic) to watch Christians try to twist the Bible or reinterpret it to fit their own personal beliefs.

Did God harden pharoah's heart, yes or no? If yes, would pharoah's heart been hardened if God did not harden it?

If you have an answer to the latter question, i'd love to hear it, because otherwise its seems like God hardened Pharoahs heart to fulfill His promise to show the egyptians how cruel and powerful he is.