I'll try to keep this short so its not tl;dr.

Christians, why are you so confident that the Jewish view of the Messiah is so wrong? It just seems counterintuitive to claim that Jesus is the Messiah when he meets very few, if not none, of the requirements required of the Messiah as Jews (who are the very people to prophesize the Messiah) understand who the Messiah is.

In general, I'm curious to hear why you as a Christian believe Jesus to be the Messiah as prophesized in the OT and other Jewish writings, in light of what most Jewish scholars consider the Messiah to be:

1. In Judaism, the Messiah is not considered to be the literal, physical God or Son of God.
2. Jewish eschatology holds that the coming of the Messiah will be associated with a specific series of events that have not yet occurred, including the return of Jews to their homeland and the rebuilding of The Temple, an era of peace and understanding during which "the knowledge of God" fills the earth
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_...l_requirements

As a side note: "Today, the various Jewish denominations have sharp disagreements about the nature of the Messiah and the Messianic Age". However, it appears that for those who believe the Messiah is a person, the requirements and characteristics of this Messiah are mostly agreed upon.

Additional reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism's_view_of_Jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claimed...ecies_of_Jesus

BTW, I'm not here to debate on whether Jesus is the Messiah or not. Its obvious that one can look at either side's argument and find it compelling enough to believe that side is correct, and since determining who is "right" requires personal interpretation, no one is going to win this "debate".

Instead, I am more curious to *discuss* with Christians (and any Jews that are lurking) their thoughts and opinions regarding Jesus as the Messiah *after* they have considered the argument from both sides. I find this whole "Jesus is the Messiah" business to be pretty intriguing because as a Christian the Jewish perspective was pretty much never shared, and the Christian perspective (like Isaiah 7:14) was a constant.

I'd read Booker's "Celebrating Jesus in the Biblical Feasts". Booker is a Christian expert on the Hebraic roots of the bible.

Its very interesting to learn the Hebrew roots but the obvious question to ask a Jew is "Why is the Messiah so slow in coming"...I think the answer is obvious if you're in a certain camp.

Some Jews I have talked to state that the Messiah, if he has not come yet, must return in the Hebrew Year 6000, which is about 2240 AD. Given that, I can't say the Messiah is "so slow" in coming since only the Jews have to power to cause the Messiah to come earlier than that.

I don't know why they don't get the 1st Coming because it mentions a Son in Psalm 2.

Also Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 are prophetic and descriptive.

I have read that Isaiah 53 isn't allowed to be read in some synagogues.

But this could all be by God's plan.

Also the naming of Benjamin by Jacob seems like a type of biblical typology.

But I think the answer is obvious: God's not slow in anything but he does have his own timeline he is following.

If you read Booker there are 2 lines: Jew and Gentile and that's also noticeable from reading the bible. You have to have 2 lines for biblical prophecy's timeline to be identifiable.

what does that have to do with the first coming?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claimed...ecies_of_Jesus was posting in my OP. Feel free to read what it says regarding those two.

not everything you read is true, and even if it is it does it mean it represents the group as a whole. You would go psycho on my ass if I said something similar regarding Christians/Christianity.

yes, anything can.

this is not really related to my OP, or maybe it is. i can't understand for the life of me what exactly you are trying to say. It seems like each sentence is a different paragraph and completely different thought. Please help me put the puzzle together.

I think its a quasi-control problem...One of the most difficult things about the bible is saying how much control man has and how much control God has. Man really has only as much control over his spiritual blindness as God allows. Why can't God have chosen to keep the Jews in spiritual blindness in accordance with their unknowing wish (subconscious desire)? God gave the choice of paths to the Jews early in Deuteronomy 28 so in a sense he has to comply with their choice of paths and by their own blindness they picked the more difficult path. If you choose God he gradually enables you to be less and less blind though it never lifts completely in this world. You see humans tend to think in black and white terms but there are all levels of gradation of understanding in God depending on the purity of your belief in him and your practice and study.


People always tend to think of God as waving a wand and able to do everything and he could if he wants to: see the Exodus for confirmation. But usually in redemption he prefers to work with us. He respects our personhood so you will see him more in encouraging and enabling roles. For example if you want to give up drinking he will help you. He won't do it all but he will be there just enough to make you more successful if you focus on him. That is power but the world tends to hide it with psychological explanations. But these old ways have been around long before Freud stuck his intellectual head out and when you get results from God and can make the connection then you don't ever turn your back on him. Why would you let someone steer you away from an enabler? Its ******ed. Like leaving a relationship with a really good person for an *******.

Anyways the Jews are most likely on God's timeline for God's reason. People have been trying to convert them for a couple of millenia unsuccessfully but God is the one that will bring about final unity in the world. See the book of Zechariah. They turn to the pierced one eventually.

Oh and this doesn't make God an ******* it just means he values personhood and uniqueness. He himself is unique so why wouldn't he allow you to be unique and glorify him? If you glorify him some of that glory will reflect back on you in your conduct one way or another but you have to glorify him and fully recognize who he is first before everything else follows. God is jealous of his glory but he's already the biggest sharer in the world...he will share his reflection with his people...he just doesn't tell you. You are made in his image. So what is wrong with him cleaning his image up before he reflects back upon you? Absolutely nothing.

I'm still unclear what that has to do with my OP.

I'm going to go back and re-read your OP more carefully.

But go to the book of Genesis and take a look at Rachel's birthing of Benjamin. He has a first name proposed by his mother then a second name by his father. Then tell me if you see any parallels.

Did you read Genesis?

yes, I'm unsure what "parallels" I'm suppose to be looking for with regards to Jewish understanding of the Messiah.

I'm not saying there isn't, I just can't read your mind, so youll need to explain it to me.

Benjamin was almost named Benoni "son of my pain" but Jacob switched it to "son of my right hand or right side".

Of course something more important to think about is the Qorbanot. Are the Jews covering their sins with a sacrifice today?:
http://www.jewfaq.org/qorbanot.htm

i will kindly ask you not derail my thread with other topics. feel free to start your own ask for input from our Jewish posters as I am in no position to be answering those types of questions.

Nobody's derailing. You asked why the Jewish Messianic view is not controlling and I'm asking how are they covering their sins?

Do you think the Rabbis got to replace God's sacrificial rules with man made ones? Or did God himself provide the sacrifice?

im pretty sure the person who wrote the OP is qualified to determine if a person is straying off topic or not, but i digress.

1. Where did I ask why the Jewish Messianic view is not controlling? I have no clue wtf you mean by "view is not controlling". Please elaborate.
2. What does "covering of their sins" have to do with their view of the Messiah? The Messiah's role according to the Jews has very little to do with "covering of their sins". That is a primarily Christian belief and is considered heretical (someone else paying for your sins) by most Jewish scholars.

Again, i fail to see how this is related. Perhaps you dont really understand my OP. Let's just start over, what exactly do you think I am asking about in my OP?

You asked why we are confident that the Jewish view of the Messiah is wrong.

Well the current Rabbinic Jews weren't the only Jews. There were Jews in the time of Jesus who chose to follow him. That's how Christianity started.

So it becomes more important to me to think about if there is a functional reason for the split and/or if God endorses it for some mysterious reason. The only reason I can see for the split is for the fulfillment of the prophecies and for the re-establishment of the state of Israel and some future purpose God might have for the Jews who will serve in the Millenial Kingdom.

There is clearly a distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the bible. Its mainly replacement theology to think the Christians totally replaced the Jews and replacement theology is not necessarily a correct theology although God could have used it to foster enough spiritual blindness for the Gentiles and Jews to remain separate groups.

Some Christians like Booker believe and teach that Jesus is the fulfillment of the feasts God ordered in the OT.

Ah I see, much more clear, thank you.

I would like to primarily focus on this part:

"Well the current Rabbinic Jews weren't the only Jews. There were Jews in the time of Jesus who chose to follow him. That's how Christianity started."

As I think the rest of your post is good, but doesn't really focus on the topic at hand.

Anyways, I am accurate in saying that your main reasons for believing that Jesus is the Messiah are:

1. Jews during (and shortly after) Jesus' time believed Jesus to be the Messiah.
2. Jesus Himself claimed to be the Messiah (or The Christ)?

My reason for believing he's the Messiah is because I believe his claim. From hearing and reading his word I perceive him to be who he says he is and since my perception ability is good I feel confident in relying on it.

I said a couple of years ago from the kind of things Jesus said and did he reveals his divine omniscience. His martyred Apostles also support his claim because I don't think people die for a lie. Also they all scattered and were afraid of the Roman authorities. Something powerful had to have happened for them to come back and die for him. The Apostles really didn't have power until the Day of Pentecost. They were strengthened by the Holy Spirit after being taught by Jesus.

i guess i cant argue with that. i trust you understand that no one else is going to find this reason compelling though, right?

people die for a lie all the time. I'll just assume you meant something else.

This is starting to get off topic (since you stated your reasons for believing Jesus is the Messiah, and those reasons go beyond anything that can be discussed in this thread), but I'm going to have to ask what you mean by "power" in this statement.

Apologies in advance for being "tl"!

I would rather be called "Messianic" instead of "Christian", but the words in the original post "so wrong" seem too strong and are better replaced by "incomplete". In the last link cited in the original post ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claimed...ecies_of_Jesus ), under the "Comparison of the messianic prophecies in Judaism and Christianity", it would seem "Christianity" is incomplete ( although some "Christians" believe in the return of Israel to their homeland and the rebuilding of the Temple )! "Christians" will often point to the Parousia for the fulfillment of all the prophecies, and "Jews" will often point to the misuse or misinterpretation of Scripture by "Christians" concerning prophecies. One would think since the Messiah would be Jewish and Jews were given the Torah and all the "promises", that Jews may be best qualified to determine who is the true Messiah; however, it's probably better to say that only "some Jews" would be qualified to determine who really was the Messiah. In the New Testament, clearly some Jews believed Yeshua was the Messiah ( and as I pointed out in another thread awhile ago, three individuals declared Yeshua to be the Messiah before any "signs" ).

Yeshua was misrepresented by the Roman Catholic Church in such a way that made it nearly impossible for a devout Jew to believe that Yeshua was the Messiah. Consider first what Rambam allegedly wrote ( from the section Maimonides' Epistle to Yemen from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus ):

OTOH, the well-known passage Mt 5:17-20 makes it clear Yeshua stated that people who "teach" and "obey Torah" will be called great in the "Kingdom of Heaven", so a question is: How does Israel keep Torah when the Temple has been destroyed? Thus, Maimonides was somehow given an "incorrect" representation of who Yeshua was, and the reason is simply that the Roman Catholic Church was influential.

Secondly, Ramban ( see next section, Nahmanides' disputation at Barcelona ) did not consider the Messiah to be "divinity" ( ~ Hashem ) in a way that "Christians" viewed "Jesus". Today, devout Jews won't believe that the "Jesus" of the Trinity is the Messiah because of the Shema ( stating that Hashem is echad = "one" ) which they pray at least twice daily. Ramban is definitely correct in that:

Thus, another "error" some "Christians" impose on the nature of Yeshua the Messiah is a Hellenistic ( and some would even say "pagan"! ) framework of understanding which is antithetical to the beliefs Jews hold concerning the "echad-ness" of Hashem. Although this framework had its usefulness in dispelling some heretical beliefs, it's better to think of this framework as a useful "model" and not an expression of "absolute truth".

As a conjectural thought, for Judaism to remain as it is today, one would think there existed at least an "agenda" to ascertain that the "Jewish faithful" not "convert to Christianity" and this could result in a slight distortion in Messianic prophecy in a similar way that "Christianity" ( at least those that wanted to eliminate Jewish practices among "believers in Yeshua" ) has distorted the portrait of Yeshua and the "good news of the Kingdom".


There is no answer for everyone, but a basic idea all throughout biblical literature is a testimony. The "account according to John" is a testimony and so is the "account according to Matthew", so we may judge based on testimonies. How does a Jew living now believe that the Torah was given by Hashem to Moses? Essentially, he/she must base his belief on testimony and "trust" ( or "faith" ).

Considering the above points in the quoted text:

1. Yeshua is the Messiah ~ "Son of God" but not Hashem, even though the "fullness of deity" in some sense dwells with Yeshua. The language from the "gospel of John" is quite clear that Yeshua is the "Son" and Hashem is the "Father".
2 and 3. These are expected to be fulfilled right after the Parousia as many "Christians" believe. IMHO, the rebuilding of the Temple and the return of Jews to Israel are necessary "pointers" to the Messiah.


For myself, the testimonies of Yochanan ("John") and of Mattityahu ("Matthew"), together with some "light", some "faith" and "life experience", all gracefully given by Hashem, seemed enough to convince me that Yeshua was the Mashiach. Even so, this mental "belief" is not "sufficient" ( some "Christians" might state otherwise ).

The author of the "gospel of John" also writes the reason for his "book" ( in Jn 20:30-31; Jewish New Testament by David H. Stern ):

You really don't want to go that route.

I could provide some examples of people dieing for something they believe in, and every time you'll tell me their belief was correct?

....

A couple brief points:

*There are over 300 specific Jewish prophecies Jesus fulfilled:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...n-nZL1dnYCxzZg

*There are plenty of "Jews" (as you use the term) who believe Jesus is the Messiah.

Jesus met all of the qualifications of the Messiah if you do not assumption the consummation of all things at once (with His first coming). If you study the Scriptures, you'll discover this (consummation not being fulfilled at first coming) is not only possible, but necessary. The reason is, contrary to your wiki source, the Messianic prophesies demand seemingly contradictory situations. For instance:

This link goes on to explain more:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/falsechrist.html

But my point is that if you read the Scriptures, you see in retrospect that it is very clear what God intended with the Messiah, and it's a beautiful plan, intricate and complicated at the same time. But obviously, God did not intend for the Messiah to fulfill everything at once since certain prophecies are contradictory if one assumes the same time period. For instance, if you read Wiki's list of prophecies and add Isaiah 53 (depicts His existence as tender, a man of sorrows, despised, dying a sacrificial death), it doesn't make sense that a majestic, conquering king could also be the pathetic and lowly suffering servant who dies in the midst of mocking and torture.

The Jewish people at the time of Jesus had built all their hopes and dreams on the glory of physical prosperity. Jesus, ironically, only offered spiritual prosperity, and this was not taken well. Those who loved the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, men like the righteous Job, loved Jesus as well, but the earthly-minded, the ones who never loved God's law but only tolerated the letter while despising the spirit, despised the Messiah as well. This is why Jesus rightly said, "You search the Scriptures because you think in them you have eternal life (as if following the letter of the law while hating it would save them by their good deeds), but it is these that testify of Me." The point of the OT sacrifices was never about the letter, but about pointing to the last sacrifice. In this way all of the Scriptures in centering around a sacrificial system testify to the Christ.

To conclude, I reject the Judaic conception of the Messiah because it is clearly short-sighted; it doesn't account for all the prophecies, and even further, it neglects necessary conditions of the coming of the Messiah. The unity in the Christian doctrine of the Messiah is compelling, as it accounts for all of the Messianic prophecies in a way that makes sense of history and the Bible.

Mege,

I'm sure a practicing Jew can answer better than I can, but your seemingly contradictory situations seem contradictory because you consider the latter "prophesy" to be a messianic prophesy when the vast majority of Jewish scholars do not.

In response to your "brief points":

1. the supposed list of 300 prophesies that Jesus fulfilled is full of disinformation that I'm surprised someone like you who claims to be so learned would use this as your source. 95+% of those "prophesies" are not, and have never been, considered messianic prophesies by the vast majority of Jewish scholars.

2. My usage of the term "Jew" was short hand for Jewish people who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. Pray tell, how many of the great Jewish scholars of Jesus' time believed He was the Messiah?