And this will be the exact moment when one will say: I did wake up from death.

There have been and there are lots of people who didn't believe and did destroy and do destroy. So the reason for destroying is not religion and believing.
This is terrifying not regarding god but love. One kind of love brings death and destroys (loving "to be"), the other kind of love creates and resurrects (loving "not to be").

The Lord is your personal dictator. You have unwavering loyalty to his cause and you would destroy the world if he asked you to. You don't question any of his demands because you blindly trust him.

If you were in Nazi Germany you would have made one the best henchmen Hitler could have asked for.

People with your blind loyalty and fanaticism are very dangerous people.

I cannot be bothered to expand on the issue or others right now, but if I find the time it might make for an interesting new thread.

Yes but we are not talking about those people, we are talking about religious people - that is a terrible counter-argument.

Religion and believing are not the cause of ALL destruction, no, but religion does cause huge amounts of destruction due to the messages it sends and the attitudes inherent in believing, e.g. blind faith.

Are there any things that you love, which also cause wars and human catastrophes? Or don't you believe in anything what causes suffer?

No, because I wouldn't love something that caused war and human catastrophe. I'm a bit confused, what kind of things did you have in mind?

You can't make yourself believe. Faith is a grace, it comes from God. If you want faith, ask for it in prayer (even if you don't believe), you will receive it.

Hell is not a place, it is the state of being alienated from the holy God. Holy means morally perfect. If you're not morally perfect and not saved (see above), then you are alienated from the source of all goodness and that's bad ofc.

Nah not if i dont have the ability not to kill. Its the moment i die.

Reading the bible convinced me that pacifism is the best stance. Just like the Sermon on the Mount inspired Ghandi to come up with civil disobedience. His form of political dissent is obviously based on Christ's turn the other cheek position.


With your method of thinking you can convict someone of someone else's crime just on suspicion or group stereotyping. You're not exactly demonstrating critical thinking skills by such assumptions.

Not the moment of killing, but the moment you feel, you are not anymore. For this moment it is not necessary to kill, like it was not necessary to kill for Abraham, but it is necessary to obey, just like it was necessary for Abraham to obey.

Your answer is pretty weird, I thought for example about money (being rich), luxury, beautiful young women, power......, you mean you don't love any of them? Any of them causes more wars in the world and more suffer in the world than any religion.
I guess, you wouldn't mind to be rich, or to have power?

@ splendour - your reply bears no relevance to what I said whatsoever, nice evading of my point. I can't be bothered to argue with you for I shall confidently never get anywhere. I hope one day you see the light (bad phrase to use, I know) and escape your madness, truly, I do.

@ sharad - No, i don't care for luxury, vast sums of money, being a man-whore or power. Some of us humans are not obsessed with any of those things. Plus, when has "luxury" or "beautiful young women" ever caused war!? lol

You're the one that dodged. You didn't explain why you are justified in constructing a new nature for the God of the bible in replacement of the historical Hebraic one.

But that's ok. I've traded posts with hundreds of atheists with the same extreme views that you hold of theists and your viewpoint is parasitically dependent on literalist stereotypes.

Just because there is one religious zealot in the world that will fly a plane into a building doesn't mean I would and it doesn't mean God would ask me to do such. That is very uncritical reasoning on your part to apply such a glaring stereotype to another individual then cavalierly reject what they say. Many theists are pacifists whether you like it or not.

Karen Armstrong explains it well here in post #38. Fundamentalist Atheism of the kind you are advocating is parasitically dependent upon grouping all theists as fundamentalists when clearly there are many groups and degrees and qualities to belief:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...07/index3.html

^^

I wasn't constructing a new nature of God, I am merely describing him. My view is not extreme, it is merely grounded in the reality that religion, as a previous poster mentioned, belongs in the dark ages, and you are SOOO far from that reality, it just seems extreme.

Yes, but if he did ask you to, you would, because you cannot refuse him and he is infallible.

And wow, your last point does actually make sense, well done! Yes, many religious people are not extreme fundamentalists. I have no problem with many moderate religious people. You, however, are not moderate. And if you are moderate, then I retract my previous statement.

Also you can't just pointlessly add the word "parasitically" to make me and my position seem sinister. Also I love how you tell everyone they have poor critical reasoning skills when you have none whatsoever. It's like fat person calling a skinny person fat - you are just projecting your own weaknesses onto me/other posters.

Walter Wink, pacifist extraordinaire.

"The Third Way": http://www.csec.org/csec/sermon/Wink_3707.htm

If i have no choice but to obey, and i have to kill and do anything God wants, i die.

You already said my mind would be gone and filled with uncontrollable love. What are we arguing about.

What if god had already proved to you that he is god, and had also previously told you that the son he just asked you to kill, was going to be the leader of nations?

If God told me my child in the next hour was going to set off a chain reaction that would destroy the universe, and proved it. Id probably do it. But id still have some questions before i would. Main one being why doesn't he do it or why didn't he do it by not allowing conception. If he says and shows he cant or couldn't, ok.

In your scenario i would also ask why cant i wait until a later date so the child isn't innocent when i killed them. If he says i just have to do it now because this is the only time i would be able to, ok.

Basically God would have to convince my moral compass that the killing is justified. I know you and theists just assume God wouldn't ask for an unjustified killing but i dont have that comfort so i would need good proof, reasons and explanations to do it. If not from my perspective i would feel like i murdered someone.

Didn't know this thread was still going. Seeing what christians have to say in this thread and most of their posts makes me not want to even try to learn about christianity. So much of this is just laughable and it's hard to believe people think this way.

At least you are funny.

Congratulations on the most weird, ******ed reply possible to what I said. Both you and splendour disgust me. You are both seriously deranged and I honestly fear for your wellbeing. I hope someday you see just how insane you both are. It greatly concerns me there are people like you in this world.

Goodbye to you both, I am checking out of this loony thread.

Why does an all powerful God need you to do anything, anyway? Can't he well enough arrange a freak tornado or something to make the grand plan work without making you gank your own kid?

By the way, can you answer my questions Concerto+Splendor?

Man, there was one honest guy on this planet, who did confess that he doesn't love luxury and power and beautiful young girls and now he did unfortunately check out.
He was also a deep thinker who claimed there has been never any wars becuase of power, luxury and beatiful youg women.
Damn! I am deranged!

Weird, as you can see he doesn't need anyone to do anything, I mean you are not doing anything in anyway (regarding religion) and every thing still works.
Whoever needs eternity needs god. Those who don't care about death, they apparently don't need him. And God doesn't need them too, cause apparantly everything still works.

I wouldn’t wish hell on my worst enemy, let alone someone that I don’t even know.

I am sad that there has been no Christian post; that has in anyway helped to lead you to think about the possibility, that God wants you in His life and that He has your best interests at heart at all times.

I don’t know if you have ever even opened a Bible? But, if you only do it once, please open one and read: Acts 9, 1-31.