very nice ^

I'm not getting anything meaningful from this reply. What are you trying to say?

Originally Posted by Ethos
If it does come back, will you dismiss God? Or will you still believe in him but hate him, or will you still believe in him and love him and think it's a test?

Is there something that could happen that would force you to disbelieve entirely?


You're a scary ****ing person and I would never ever want to meet you in real life.

I believe he was implying that Christians (and I would guess he wasn't specifically targeting just them) often dodge questions. How they dodge them is another thing

I really don't understand how this works.

You say God healed you because you surrendered yourself to him.

When asked why god doesn't heal/protect others who surrender themselves to him, your answer is basically "I don't know"

How do you know that God healed you then? Instead of assuming that a mysterious force healed some and not others for mysterious reasons, isn't it more likely that no one was healed in this manner, and your regression of symptoms is just that?


It seems that you are falling victim to a pretty common correlation/causation confusion.

Also, if it is your position that prayer is superior to modern medicine in terms of curing ailments, please, and I say this without a shred of a mocking tone, don't have children.

Yes, idk why God does certain things. I do know what happend to me, though. I would be crazy not to believe in God after everthing thats happend.

I take medicine, but scripture says that He can heal you. My father was cured from cancer by faith and prayer. He refused to get immediate treatment that doctors recommended because he believed God would take care of it. I thought this was crazy at the time, but the day i drove him to the hospital and the doctors said it was 100% gone I was amazed. There are tons of stories about God healing people (e.g. Dave Hess and Charles Vance are two pastors that have been healed from cancer).

Also, some Amish people don't take medicine and trust that God will heal them because they believe that medicine is of the world and not God.

If i truly believe that the Bible is the Word of God (which i do), I should trust every word that God says or I'd be a hypocite.

I admire your "all the way or no way" attitude (truly). [However] But I would still caution you about believing in God's "healing power". When it comes to disease and illness, "a few pastors here and there were healed by God" doesn't do a lot for God's record of saving people. Just turn on the news. I know the news is "of this world", but since we live in it, it's the best means we have of getting certain information. It's not like God's good at communicating. He never has been.. at anything beyond a one-on-one conversation or the "occasional" book

Sorry for being such a smartass. Hey, who knows? Maybe I'll get mine in the afterlife. Although I wouldn't bet on it.

Do you know what I mean by "correlation/causation confusion?" Just because you prayed and X happened does not mean X happened because you prayed.


I don't know what you mean when you say you would be crazy not to believe based on all that's happened. I would once again ask you what evidence you have that prayer was responsible for this. I also ask you to consider the question of "which option is more likely" that I posed.

If you pray and engage in doctor care, via con dios. But if you pray in lieu of medicine, or encourage that sort of behavior, you are gambling with people's lives.

"The Christ Church" in Oregon practices faith healing exclusively, and it is estimated that since 1950 at least 20 lives could have been saved by medical intervention. So what, are they doing it wrong?

I believe it was God for the simple reason that it all left instantly. I have many other experiences that make me believe the existence of God and His Word in the Bible, but don't want to turn this thread into my testimony. Its all good if you disagree.

And I'm not telling anyone not to take medicine. I pointed out scipture itt that says that God will heal the sick.

The deaths caused from medical errors by US hospitals is much more significant statistic than 20 people dying in the last 61 years for not getting treatment.

This is all fine and good but in regards to the bolded, you cannot... be... serious.

Do you really not know what a ridiculous statement this is? Medical treatment has a proven track record of success, documented. Can we say the same about faith healing?

And yes, when you are dealing with such a large number of people mistakes can happen.


20 people didn't die in 61 years due to faith healing, 20 people from THIS PARTICULAR CHURCH did.... if faith healing were ever practiced on a large scale.. well, lets just hope that doesn't happen.

And the question still remains as to why your god is letting these most devout of followers, who trust entirely in him, die... but hey I guess we can't know so let's just keep trying.

everyone dies last time i checked

You are by example. You refuse to pursue an examination when you have had symptoms of severe mental illness. Which could cause you to injure or kill yourself, or some other innocent person, if you should relapse. And you do this knowing that there are other Christians with off and on severe mental illnesses who pray for it to go away, and get no results.

...the 20 person statistic was from one Church, and the US hospitals statistics are from the entire United States population. I don't think It's ever been measured, but I'm sure a huge amount of people have been severely injured or died because they have not sought medical treatment for whatever religious reasons.


It's meant to imply that you're both dodging your respective questions.

He's not answering the question (paraphrasing) "Can people ever be irresponsible in expecting God to heal an actual disease?", by just erroneously posting bible versus about healing...

And you're not answering my question of "Why is God's will right?" by saying "everyone has a choice", which doesn't at all explain why God is always right.

you are dodging like crazy, and the amount of questions that you flat won't respond to grows by the post... why is this? (I think I know why)

I have answered every question from you that I have read, this one more than once. Saying "God is always right" is a normative statement which some people choose to make and hold to. Others have chosen different ethical standards for a variety of reasons. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

Today, faith healings arent typically documented on the reg. They are however documented in the Bible as I already said itt.

I also already said itt that i dont fully know how God works or understand everything He does. Why do people that have great faith die? idk man, everyone dies...theres my answer. I dont see how someone dying discredits the existence of God, which seems like your point.

documented in the bible? im talking about something that has a tangable benefit for society, ya know, like real medicine does. Or should we just have waited for God to get around to eradicating small pox?

The question wasn't 'why do people who have great faith die' It was 'Why when God says he will heal people who trust in him does he not do so?

Dying dosen't discredit the existence of God, but doesn't it seem strange to you that you have to make up excuses as to why your God doesn't do something he clearly says he will do according to his divinely inspired word?

Why does God have to heal everyone in every case?

If your eternal fate rests in God's hands then all kinds of situations could go into forming that fate. It doesn't mean God can't heal. It means God controls the decision when or whether or not to based on his objectives for you. People in general when criticizing prayer as weak always wax too literal and forget that God is sovereignly in control and should be rather than people being in control.

People are very restricted/limited in what they can see. They can only see the present and the things of this world. They can't see the future or the next world. Another reason why people talking about genocide so much is deceptive. We don't know from this world's perspective if the people receiving genocide didn't earn a better eternal fate earlier. We assume dying is the most terrible fate a person can receive but everyone is going to die one way or another anyway except for some of the people in the very last generation at Christ's Second Coming.

Wow, how very scary, thanks for sharing.

How scary?

You just illustrated my point.

You assume death is the worst fate but its not if you go to a better place.

People like to condemn Americans for genocide of the heathen Indians. But Indians were very spiritual and believed in a Great Spirit.

How do we know those millions of Indians that died didn't get to heaven earlier than the Americans who killed them?

I'm not saying killing or genocide is right. If you are reading that into my post then that's something you're attributing that I didn't say.

But if you can't see the other side after death you can't say definitively that people who died early received the cruelest fate.

But views that stress that this is the only life always stress death as the worst fate that can befall anyone while Christians just acknowledge that God is sovereign and in control of life. Which means we do the best we can while we are here. We don't actively seek death because we think the next world is better. That would be to deny God his sovereignty over us.

Death itself is not scary. It's a part of life, things need to die in order for other things to live. What's scary is what you implied earlier. Not that Genocide is good, but that Genocide might not be the worst thing, cause hey they might have found an eternal paradise...

Assuming

That there IS such a thing as a paradise, or any other worlds in general (which is a huge assumption to make)

What about the pain, agnguish, suffering and torment those people have to go through first? Is this at all justfied even IF there is such a place like paradise? Is that what a loving god does? I dont know about you, but if I was brought forth to my creator, only to learn he made me watch my family members die, before mercifully deciding to end my life as some sort of price of admission for his paradise, I would look upon him as a monster, not a benevolent being.

But thats the great thing about god, you can rationalize even the most horrific actions any number of ways that makes this sort of being the good guy, and I cant imagine you would in any other situation execpt that your salvation doctrine commands that you do so.

Wat?

Everyone watchs their family members die unless you avoid it or are not present for some reason and watching them die from cancer or some other condition is a lot longer and harder than a swift execution.

Dying is a natural culmination to life. Its just the different ways you can die make it seem more or less natural and you have attached a lot of resentment towards dying.

You can be more objective about it when considering existential questions like I am or you can be subjectively emotional about it like you are right now. We don't always have good control of our emotions though. They frequently seem to control us more than we control them.

You may be biased and assuming that your emotionally resentful approach is some how better than looking at things less resentfully.

Of course emotions are usually rational but not always.

Yes, lots of people have the displeasure of watching family members die, not so much brutally murdered though... do you honestly think there is no distinction?


I have attached a lot of resentment toword dying? You are misrepresenting my position and I have to think its intentional at this point considering the first thing I said in my last post.

You think you are being objective? Do you know what that word means?

That's why it's called faith, dude. I suspect a lot of religious people, Christians included, regularly have doubt about whether a god or gods actually exist. But it's like hedging your bets. If there is a god, and you picked the right one, heaven. If there is a god, and you picked the wrong one or none of the above... maybe hell? I doubt it because I find it hard to believe that a just god would send an otherwise ethical person who lives a good life to hell, simply for exercising his/her free will, while at the same time letting a murderer enter the gates of heaven if he repents before dying. Does that seem fair to you?

Objective may be a poor word choice. Maybe morally neutral or dispassionate is a better choice.

But why do we shoot horses when they break a leg? Do we let the horse roll around in pain until the end of its life? Do we make it hobble, etc.

Yes there is a great distinction as you mentioned above but we still own the responsibility for that.

Try contrasting more primitive men like the Indians who were in sync with God and nature with modern men of knowledge. Modern people always think they have to control everything.

More primitive or natural people don't though. They have a deep almost non-attachment Buddhist like strain. Practicing Christians can obtain this non-attachment ability. When you can release all your fears and resentments...let them go and put them in God's hands then you are freed up mentally and emotionally. None of us has absolute control to prevent death. So "Don't worry...Be happy." Negative emotions like resentment and bitterness put a lot of emotional wear and tear on your nerves.

I don't know how to block quote, so I'll just go point by point:

You are being disspassionate about it as a hypothetical discussion on a messageboard, but thats a luxury you are afforded for the moment. I don't believe for a second that your emotional state would be the same natural causes death vs. watching someone you love get shot in the head... unless you suffer from boarderline personality disorder, or something.

I don't know what your getting at with the horse analogy... we arent talking about euthanasia here....

I don't know how/if you are in a position to analyze the behavior of primitive man, and im not sure what "natural man" means.


The problem is that your entire point of view operates on assumptions, assuming god, and assuming an afterlife, and then you (basically) call me narrowminded for not going a long with your assumptions, the basis for which is based on questionable evidence if we are playing nice... that just doesn't compute.