Mt 7:12

No I do not believe it is a sin to play poker as a Christian. I understand too the Christian community as a whole, they may have preconceived notions about poker.

For those of you who play poker seriously, I want you to think about some of the times that you told people about your affinity to play poker whether as recreational or professionally. I'm sure some of them quipped fairy quickly that it is largely luck and they saw it as a gamble that negated skill, and those that play it must be degenerates. My parents still slightly feel that way.

Hopefully your response was was akin to explaining to them that poker is more than what their preconceived notions lead them to believe. (As Christians we tend to have a lot of preconceived notions about issues passed down to us, some right, many wrong. Theology and the application of theology influenced by truly biblical hermeneutics can be a real rabbit trail, not often addressed by the church or a traditional life group or bible study. Usually surface level concepts and understanding is as deep as the modern church will take you.)
In your response, you probably explained that poker rewards skill and variance and luck does indeed play a role in the short term. Then maybe you went on to explain a few basic math concepts to them and furthered your viewpoint that in order to be successful at poker you must be an astute player and operate your career as a business. Then maybe you then made correlations to other career endeavors that hold similar characteristics to poker such as day trading, working in finance, investment banking, or simply being a small business owner. In any business endeavor variance or luck plays a factor. Also being a good businessman or woman plays a factor, or skill. Poker isn't any different from a traditional (or in a Christians eyes) a reputable business or career choice on a fundamental level. The controversy lies within the things that surround poker. It's in a casino, people drink, it is inhabited by other humans that may have less than moral inclinations, which in reality is not than different from the traditional workplace, minus the casino and drinking on the job part. Due to being honestly ignorant to what poker is, people may write off poker due to nefarious viewpoints that can come from being uninformed or simply not caring. Either of which I do not blame them for. There is an unfortunate stigma that comes with poker, albeit sometimes for certain individuals may be true, but not the community as a whole.

When I first got a glimpse of poker at 16 years old I felt this way, I thought it was for losers and greasy people, then realized @ 18 it could be lucrative, took immense amounts of skill and dedication and that it encompassed positive skill sets, life skills and character qualities that I didn't posses but must acquire to be successful, I then decided I wanted to make a career out of it.

From a biblical perspective, as far as sinfulness goes, lies within the heart and intention of the individual. Anything can be sinful, whether it's poker or running a church ministry, either one can thrive on greed, dishonesty or whatever. Making a living through poker isn't necessarily sinful, just like making a living doing anything else isn't necessarily sinful either.

If you approach poker as a Christian, then you will realize that you will sin while being a professional poker player, and that poker being your career choice ISN"T whats sinful, but that YOU ARE sinful.

I believe this thought process to be true regarding poker, but not universal. Obviously there are career choices that are outright sinful. For example, if I lobbied to be the "First Christian Porn Director" who is releasing his own film called Sodom Bottom Volume 1, that would negate any Christian moral compass for obvious reasons regardless of how virtuous and technical I tried to spin my argument.

God looks at the heart and isn't as small minded as people or even Christians believe He is to be. You may argue that I suffer from mental illness when saying this, but God once spoke to me saying "I'm proud of you, that was the best poker you have ever played" when leaving frustrated after busting the bubble at a $225 daily at the Aria during the first few months of my poker career. It was a special moment...

Poker is a unique beast. If you are a bad player but are running ahead of expectation or donk a decent sized tournament, everyone thinks that you are Rain Man. However if you are a good, astute player grinding it out and go on a downswing or simply are not having the success you were hoping for in the time frame you aim at, everyone thinks you were silly and unwise to pursue poker. At least in the business world if a small business owner bets the farm and loses their friends and community will commend them on their courage and entrepreneurial spirit; and should that small business owner succeed they look like Elon Musk and they get a nice write up in the paper and shout out on NPR... In poker there will always be some stigma and controversy, especially as a Christian.

Is it morally wrong to exploit unknowing people or gambling addicts for financial gain? How is this even a question? The level of rationalizations ITT are not surprising.

is it wrong to "exploit" other businessmen or woman that are not as savvy in the workforce as you as well? Is it wrong to better at your career profession as others? EVERY business endeavor involves monetary investment whether its buying a warehouse and materials to be a third party vendor to electrical companies or a buy-in in a poker tournament. Those that are good succeed and those that are inferior lose money. This is not a rationalization.

In a way you do have a point, and I understand where you are coming from, but as a poker player, this concept is an overplayed technicality on morality, is it not? I am not responsible for the actions of someone who has a gambling problem, and that is not a rationalization. Gambling addicts do exist, however the idea that I'm bleeding their poor souls alive is overplayed.

I used to be a terrible drug addict in high school after getting addicted to pain pills after a shoulder surgery from a hockey injury. I did 4 months in rehab, relapsed a month after getting out and used for another few years while homeless. As of now I've been sober just shy of 4 years. Is it drug companies at fault for my addiction and making pills for my consumption (I'm not arguing that drug companies do not have questionable ethics,) no its is my fault at the end of the day.

I don't think God is going to browbeat me for playing poker for a living, and it isn't my job to monitor and make sure every individual in a tournament or cash game is being responsible. That is not a rationalization.

My roommate at the moment is a close friend of mine I met at a church I attended for a few years, and he genuinely has a gambling problem. This year alone he is down $7000 in blackjack and poker and he only makes $25000 a year (if that) off his small antique flipping business. He will admit that his problem lies within himself and he is to blame. Now if I were to egg him on and encourage him to be frivolous with his money knowing he had a problem, and told him to play some people knowing he would donk money off to them, then yeah I would have some blame on myself as well. I have a friend living in Vegas who is a Christian and he runs a liquor store. We have have had numerous conversations concerning the moral dilemma that poses as a Christian. I get that there is a moral dilemma that poker poses to the Christian, but the good news is that God (supposedly) can see what lies in the hearts of mankind and judges us accordingly.


Fun fact, I'm moving back to Vegas May 5th after taking a few months away from poker. The church i go to here in Colorado is a small church plant from Indiana. The church makes less than their needed tithe amount to stay afloat. There is one other poker payer in the congregation of about 250 people and he helped fund the church plant as well as helps keep the overhead afloat now. Another friend of mine from the church is the accountant for the church and runs the benevolence program, he estimated that upwards of a million POKER dollars have gone into the church over the course of its 3 year history. I always found that ironic.

In Christian doctrine it certainly is wrong. Actual Christianity calls people to basically sacrifice their entire lives for their faith. Exploiting people in any way for money would be considered sinful.

It's not wrong to be better at a profession, but it's wrong to use your intelligence and wit to con people out of their money. It would be bearing false witness to pretend you weren't a professional as well, which most professionals do so as not to 'scare the fish away.' Mutual benefit (they give me money, I give them entertainment) is such an obvious rationalization. Everyone hates losing money, and no one plays poker expecting to lose. More often than not you're taking advantage of someone who doesn't know better or someone who literally cannot help themselves (addicts). You may as well deal drugs at that point. Hey, there is a mutual benefit right?

You are your brothers keeper, that is the overarching message of Christianity. I can deal cocaine and heroin (hey, people are going to use it anyway right---at least from me they get stuff that's not going to kill them) and donate money to the church, it doesn't make drug dealing ok.

In your reading of Christianity, is it anti-capitalistic in a broad sense? If not, how do you distinguish better performance based on higher levels of skill/knowledge/competence and "exploitation"?

I would say it's politico-economically neutral. It doesn't have much to say on broad economic questions. It's about an individuals relationship with God and other individuals.

I use the dictionary definitions of words. You can try looking them up if you want.

Exploitation: the action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work

Fair: without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage

I would argue that a pro poker player acts very much like a casino in the sense of edges. A lot of people don't know they exist, some people think they can beat the odds, and some people can't help themselves. However, it's anything but a "fair" game. The fact some people are willing to engage in an unfair game doesn't mean it's ethical for a Christian to engage in it for personal benefit. Part of Christian responsibility is treating others as we would want to be treated. No one wants to be taken advantage of. If they think wrongly that they can win despite the game being unfair, then it's Christians responsibility to make them aware of it, and not to use that wrong view against them.

Gambling is also just as addictive for some people as nicotine or cocaine, it would obviously be negative to take advantage or play a lopsided game with someone who can't say no, which you are inevitably doing. Willing to enable someones addiction and all the negative consequences of it for personal gain would put you on roughly the same ethical level as a crack dealer.


One situation in which I think poker is ok is a contest between two professionals who each believe themselves to be better than the other. In that sense, neither is unaware of skill edges, neither likely has a crippling gambling addiction, etc. Blatantly taking advantage of weak players is just obviously unethical.

I used to play the semi-professional tennis circuit, where each player
pays their expenses, and pays entry fees into the tournament.

I would do my darnedest to beat any and all players I played, in any
way I could under the rules. Was this non-Christian behavior? How is
it unlike paying an entry fee into a poker tournament, hoping to outplay
the other players and take home some of the prize money?

Specifically, what is unfair about poker? What is the "unjust advantage" that is being achieved?

It would vary. Regardless, it's hard to imagine Jesus using any advantage he had against someone for personal gain.

Because there is very little luck involved in tennis and luck dominates poker in the short-term, giving inexperienced players the illusion of a possibility of winning, and good players take advantage of that 'lie' for their benefit. Ever heard the phrase 'variance keeps bad players playing?' That doesn't happen in competitive tennis.

Why?

If Jesus played basketball, he would never head-fake to get a better look at the hoop. (He'd just shoot it and it would go in all the time. Totally not an advantage. Completely just and fair.)

So your argument comes down to "because I don't have an imagination"?

An ethical business deal would be one of mutual benefit. "Exploiting" people, especially through means of deception, seems wrong in the Christian sense.

Ok its wrong to con people out of money. But is that what poker is? A con?

Maybe we should draw distinction between the deception involved in poker and deception outside of poker. When these tactics are limited to the bounds of a game where it is made clear that they are part of the game then it becomes a different form of deception. It's an "open deception". The object of the game is to win your opponents chips through strategies that involve outwitting and sometimes deceiving your opponents. As long as players adhere to the rules that have been agreed upon then it is fairplay.

However, if a player exploits loopholes in the rules or common inferences drawn from the rules to gain an advantage then they are acting unethically.

Not everyone hates to lose. There are plenty of people who enjoy the friendly competition. And with competition comes the possibility of loss. In fact, despite what you claim, there are plenty of people who expect to lose. They don't expect to lose every hand they play and that is enough to enjoy themselves. I think you might be underestimating the intelligence of most people who gamble regularly. It seems the overwhelming majority of people actually do understand the concept of edge.

Gambling addiction is an issue. Addiction can be an issue in almost every facet of life. Drugs, video games, sex, collecting stamps, you name it- there are addicts. Are you going to stop playing video games on the internet because you're contributing to the addiction of some gamers? Should we just cut out video game production all together? It's sad to see lives affected by addiction. But we can't halt everything because some people get carried away. We have systems in place to help those unfortunate enough to end up there.

Certainly to some extent it is. Bluffing, reverse tells, gathering information your opponent is giving off in order to take his money, etc.

How do casinos continue to make billions and billions of dollars per year then? Either people don't understand the edges involved, or they think they are the lucky one that will beat the odds---that's why casinos make the money they do. Casinos spend tens of millions of dollars on research and development on games designed specifically to activate reward centers in your brain in just the right way to get you to continue playing until the sun comes up and you've spent your whole paycheck. It's ok though because it's entertaining to lose? C'mon.

The other point is that you have no reliable way of judging who is in it for competition and who is addicted/desperate/unknowingly playing at a disadvantage. You inevitably will play with these categories of people, contributing to the hell that is their lives, on purpose. You might not go in intending to hurt someone, but you will hurt a lot of people. Christian responsibility isn't about personal gain, it's about personal sacrifice, and that includes giving up potential income streams or entertaining activities when you find out people are being hurt by it.

Understand I'm not preaching here. The bible says almost nothing about gambling, but it says a lot about coveting money and pursuing money and gaining the world but losing your soul. For some Christians playing poker might not bother their conscience. It bothers mine, and always did when I played poker, so I don't play anymore.

Yes, I think in all cases where you are causing harm intentionally or not to people by an activity then as a Christian you shouldn't do it. Video games are almost pure entertainment; no one is going to lose their mortgage payment to you playing COD. But if you suspected someone was taking the video game too seriously, or you beating them was causing resentment or furthering someones addiction, then yes one should stop playing with them.

You should look into some of the severe cases of gaming addiction. If you won't concede that point then we can use wine consumption as an analogy instead.

Oh I know it happens, but it's comparatively rare compared to gambling is all I'm saying. Video games don't bother my conscience like poker does (just when I play them too much). If it doesn't bother your conscience, then play away. Just make sure you're being honest about what your conscience is saying.

True

1 Corinthians 8:10

I'm the original poster from 2 years ago and I think you're right, it really is this simple. There's all kind of rationalization for why it's the same as deception in sports which is accepted as part of the game like pump-fakes or curveballs, but ultimately those rationalizations are probably coming from a heart of greed that wants to save it's life rather than lose it, which is what we're called to do as Christians. It's especially frightening how much the Bible has to say about people in the last days exploiting others for the sake of personal gain (for example the 2 pages in Jude) so I REPENT and hope God will forgive me for this evil, and also that others will forgive me for using software to gain massive unfair advantages online.

Yes, I recognize how poker could directly violate the Golden Rule. I just always figured, I'm fine with others trying their hardest against me, so it was fine for me to try my hardest against them, just like I'm fine with someone trying their hardest against me in a basketball game. It does really suck though to face a really gross checkraise and not know what to do. So I don't know if it's so much that I was violating the "do to others as you would have them do to you" rule as the reality that financial exploitations are antithetical to what it is to follow Christ, and it wasn't like Jesus or Paul or Peter had to exploit the rich in order to help the poor. It's impossible to serve two masters.

This is very interesting point and it's true we tend to not give recs enough credit, especially at the higher levels. We are shocked anyone can be so bad at poker, but the truth is poker is an incredibly complex game and I once sucked at it too and still do compared to a lot of regs. A lot of the whales are actually very smart people with high IQ's they just haven't taken time to study poker theory. And not everyone "hates" losing. I've played guys heads-up live 5/10 and won thousands from them and they still shake my hand at the end of the night and thank me for the fun game. But probably all this a load hypocritical garbage in the eyes of God and I know I desperately need the blood of the Lamb applied to my account more than anything.

Of course he forgives you for everything. I'm way worse than you are trust me. I used to swear and blaspheme and get all kinds of angry and break things and basically was consumed by my goal to be a rich, famous poker player. That's the other thing about poker that bothers me---I don't like who I am or what comes out of me when I play it.

God isn't concerned with your sins. They've been paid. He just wants you to learn from them, so don't beat yourself up too much, brother. If it bothers your conscience, there's a reason-- don't do it.

Honestly I am so glad you posted this hahaha. I'm right there with you.

4 tabling sit and goes and busting 15 buy ins in a row when switching to higher stakes and running like doo-doo... The things that came out of my mouth... so terrible.

Must admit. Before I opened this thread I thought " here we go" but actually you raise a very intresting point lol. Teach me to make assumptions