This isn't a rapid fire q+a! Slow down a moment and consider that what I asked you might not be trivially answered!

How would you connect any number of fulfilled prophecies with God (or a god). The number of correct prophecies doesn't change anything.

Show me the steps that concludes "Therefore God", rather than "that's a mystery".

There is no other book in history that has scores of fulfilled prophecies.

It is evidence that the Bible's source is something far beyond human capacity or understanding.

Fulfilled prophecies are a step in demonstrating the supernatural nature of the Bible.

There is no natural explanation for it (at least as of this writing).

I've heard this presented hundreds of times, but never backed up. It's just a talking point. Where are the prophecies that say "In 1953 Watson and Crick will discover DNA?" Where is the prophecy that says in 2020 coronavirus will arise in China and cause a pandemic." Where is the prophecy that says on May 14, 1948 Israel will be established under Ben-Gurion? Where is the prophecy that says that Copernicus of Poland will rearrange the solar system in the 16th C.? Where is the prophecy that says the North Atlantic savage slaver traders, all Christians, would be making quite a mistake?

All the so-called prophecies that do appear are weak and vague. They could have been earth-shattering and totally convincing. But they aren't, obviously because they just didn't know. Show me a prophecy that says Jim Jones, in the 1960s and '70's, will be a false man of god and don't follow him. Then you inspire belief.

You are still just repeating these assertions. Connect fulfilled prophecies with God (or a god). Show me your steps . If you prefer, explain it as you'd explain to a five year old, point by point.



I sincerely hope you understand that this doesn't help support your explanation.

What apologetics books have you read where this assertion is made, but not "backed up?"

Those prophecies are not in Scripture. Thank you for sharing that fact.

I listed some that are clear and specific. Please engage those if you'd like.

No they aren't clear and specific or anywhere near as convincing as the hypothetical ones I listed would be. Sorry.

Here's my prophecy: There is going to be lies and rumors of lies in government, there will be terrible hurricanes and droughts, heavenly missiles will threaten the earth (we don't know if they are asteroids, comets, etc. even though we are omniscient), a corrupt king will morph into the anti-christ and on May 57th, 2036 will scratch his ass twice on a Tuesday morn, those of the east and west will feud, a punk in Magog will poison rivals, fundamentalists will continue to mime the doctrine in ALL of the earth's religions ...

Since you won't engage my examples and questions , I shan't (is that still a word?) engage you further.

I make mine in the sheet pan. We have the pizza mode on the oven that heats top and bottom at once. So good......not competing with the pizza shop dough at all, just 'the best' in it's own way.

Not to be a dick but, doesn't it depend on when the prophecies were written.
If they were after the fact it's a lot easier to predict what was going to happen.

That's just the comfort she needs on her death bed. Good job.

JFC........

Lagtight, I'm not sure if you think you've actually addressed my question (you haven't) or you're not answering for some other reason. I'm genuinely curious in how you get from fulfilled prophecy to the existence of God (or a god), but I won't ask again if you're not interested.

If you think prophecy is consistent with the God you believe in, well fine. But if you're claiming that prophecy is a reason to believe God (or a god) exists in the first place, I would like to hear that justification.

Not being a d*** at all. Your question above and BF's questions are legitimate and important.

Some of the prophecies in the OT are so specific in that they point to specific historical events, that some scholars have argued that the "prophecies" were asserted "after the fact."

That argument can have merit in a few cases. However, in most cases the prophecies were made in OT books that even "liberal" scholars agree had to be written long before the event took place in history.

Obviously, the 100+ prophecies about Jesus Christ were written at least 100 years before Jesus was even born.

Yeah. I remember looking into them a bit years ago. They were okay. Not like picking a lottery number though. I never really figured it was important either way.

But it did occur to me that these books were written after the events they portray.

They did speak of a savior of course. But the early Christians put the whole 'sacrificed himself for our sins' idea together after the fact.

Which is fine imo. It doesn't even have to be literal, it's a spiritual truth that humans are flawed and if you believe God is the embodiment of perfection then you're going to need help.

That's the part of Christianity that I'm always okay with.

After that it's hit and miss.

To be fair to Christians, I don't think prophecy has ever been big in the official teachings.

In fact I think more than a few witches have been burned for their own good with regards to it.

The fulfillment of prophecy with respect to future historical events would require the ability to successfully manipulate events in order for the prophecy to be fulfilled.

For example, the manipulation of the actions of hundreds of people wouldn't be required to prophecy that five minutes from now that I am going to draw four cards at random from a standard deck and that all four will be an ace. It would be a "stand alone" prophecy, so to speak.

However, in order to successfully prophecy that a hundred years from now the Messiah will be put to death In a specific manner AFTER other specific events taking place would require the manipulating the thoughts and actions of perhaps hundreds of people to assure that the event prophecied would come to pass.

In short, foreknowledge requires Providence.

Precognition (a la Minority Report) explains prophecy.
Time travel (a la 12 Monkeys) explains prophecy.
Witchcraft (a la Charmed) explains prophecy.

How could you test any of our proposed explanations?
How could you falsify any of our proposed explanations?

You see what I'm getting at, right?



PS Out of interest, if all these prophecies had alternative explanations that you accepted, would you still consider yourself a Christian?

Nothing on your list would explain prophecy, unless God was providing the "precognition" or time travel or whatever.

There are many arguments for Christianity. Prophecy is strong, but not by itself anything close for a death knell to warranted Christian belief if found wanting.

Lol, they can't explain prophecy unless the underlying mechanism was known and from your worldview?!

Therefore they can explain prophecy.

Tell me how you'd be able to differentiate between a prophecy that was allegedly explained by time travel (unknown mysterious mechanism) vs. a prophecy that was allegedly explained by God (or a god)?



Is that a yes?

Please try some examples of explaining prophecy that don't come from Hollywood movies.

I thought you were a fan of reality.

Yes, that was a "Yes".

This is no different than dismissing your position as being "a fairytale for grownups" or "something something magic man in the sky". This is clearly a hypothetical from my perspective.

If someone actually believed that precognition (or ANYTHING that appeared to explain alleged prophecy) was real, how would you show that they were wrong and you were right, or vice versa?

It should be clear that I don't think you can, without begging the question, but I'm just interested in whether you think you can do it. So far it's been really difficult just to get you to engage with this hypothetical!

Ok thx. While it kind of makes this prophecy talk all moot, I think it's still an interesting thought experiment. But perhaps at some point in the future we can get to discussing the core justification for your beliefs.

It's not "moot" it all. It is one of many evidences for the supernatural nature of the Bible.

Ok. Now how about [the ongoing quest to get you to respond to] my question?

I'll address your prophecy questions in the Prophecy Thread.

I voted heaven all the way.

It has nothing to do with "convenience". Its God´s sovereign choice.
You can´t choose faith in God. God chooses you. The people that say "I believe" and are living worldly lives have not been born again and will get the Matthew 7 :21-23 "treatment" when they die.

And what does "slightly sinful" even mean? Most of us have told countless lies, looked at porn, looked with lust, blasphemed, stolen etc. That might be "slightly sinful" to you but it won´t be to God.