Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-19-2016, 06:13 PM   #26
neeeel
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,472
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerlogist View Post
This quote by Loading... in post #5 is false. The phrase "god of this world" refers to false gods of humankind on earth, not to Satan. The word Satan is not in that sentence in any valid version of the Bible. It changes the meaning of the passage. He also misinterprets other quotes which I have no time to correct.

"In their case the god of this world (Satan) has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."
- 2nd Corinthians 4:4
How do you know hes misinterpreted it?
neeeel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2016, 10:02 PM   #27
esspoker
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,037
Re: Christianity is a scam

Only a handful of people to my knowledge have ever understood Jesus's message.

I know a "Christian" who thinks signing a certificate allowing Jesus in his heart will guarantee he gets into heaven. This isn't faith; it is a business deal with a narcissist.

Jesus talks a lot about true faith. But you have to read between the lines. His way of speaking is meant to confuse and make you think.

Christianity (literally, following the words of Jesus) is not a scam. The organization of the religion in its current form is a scam. And the people who believe it are knowingly scamming the system: they want God to give them something for cheap. They don't want to behave like good people. They just want a free pass into heaven.

I think St. Paul was a charlatan
esspoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 08:07 AM   #28
Mightyboosh
mmm mmm good
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mount Olympus
Posts: 4,971
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
Christians can make a lot of weird claims, but claiming that Jesus' death on the cross was a world-changing event seems correct to me.
I think his crucifixion is important to the story of Christianity but wasn't a 'world-changing' event. Plenty of people died on crosses, what was different about this particular death was people's attitude toward the victim, an attitude that could only have existed because it formed throughout his life, it was the result of the sum of all his actions. And, I would even say that it was actually the resurrection that was the world-changing event, if pressed to try to reduce it all to a particular moment. That, or his birth.

What did his crucifixion change? We can't know that he wouldn't have gone on to become the leader of a religion, rather than just a cult, had he lived. But perhaps that wouldn't have happened without the resurrection.
Mightyboosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 08:12 AM   #29
Mightyboosh
mmm mmm good
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mount Olympus
Posts: 4,971
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
"If Jesus really was the Son of God, he would come back to Earth again a long time ago."

O RLY?

Why is that? Because you say so?
Yes, and God told me the same thing, but you'll just have to take my word for it. He told me that Jesus was a slightly mad opportunist that he created to amuse himself and kick start Christianity, having become a bit fed up with the Jews, and not actually his son, but had he been, he would have sent him back ages ago. Have faith in me Zit.
Mightyboosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 08:39 AM   #30
FlicksTracey
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 125
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
I don't understand your view. Presumably we can all agree that the rise, rule, and fall of the Roman Empire was a world-changing event of history. That story cannot be accurately told without talking about the changes in the Empire due to the increasing popularity of the Christian religion, its eventual adoption as the state religion, and then its impact on what came after the Roman Empire. Jesus' crucifixion is a central part of the Christian religion, functioning as the climax of the story of Jesus told in the gospels. Hence, Jesus' death should be regarded as a world-changing event.
So all you have is more claims?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
So what is your view? That Christianity isn't actually an important part of history? Or that Jesus' death is not central to Christianity?
My view is that Christianity (and every other religion) is a scam.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
I'm pretty sure most Jews would agree with me that Jesus and the rise of Christianity were world-changing events. Jews, who have suffered as much as anyone from Christian persecution and prejudice, are not likely to minimize Jesus' historical significance.
More claims.
FlicksTracey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 08:46 AM   #31
Black Peter
veteran
 
Black Peter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: The Pass
Posts: 2,868
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by esspoker View Post
Only a handful of people to my knowledge have ever understood Jesus's message.

I know a "Christian" who thinks signing a certificate allowing Jesus in his heart will guarantee he gets into heaven. This isn't faith; it is a business deal with a narcissist.

Jesus talks a lot about true faith. But you have to read between the lines. His way of speaking is meant to confuse and make you think.

Christianity (literally, following the words of Jesus) is not a scam. The organization of the religion in its current form is a scam. And the people who believe it are knowingly scamming the system: they want God to give them something for cheap. They don't want to behave like good people. They just want a free pass into heaven.

I think St. Paul was a charlatan
If Paul was a charlatan, what does your NT look like?
Black Peter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 10:22 AM   #32
Original Position
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Original Position's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 6,701
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh View Post
I think his crucifixion is important to the story of Christianity but wasn't a 'world-changing' event. Plenty of people died on crosses, what was different about this particular death was people's attitude toward the victim, an attitude that could only have existed because it formed throughout his life, it was the result of the sum of all his actions. And, I would even say that it was actually the resurrection that was the world-changing event, if pressed to try to reduce it all to a particular moment. That, or his birth.

What did his crucifixion change? We can't know that he wouldn't have gone on to become the leader of a religion, rather than just a cult, had he lived. But perhaps that wouldn't have happened without the resurrection.
Well, since the resurrection, unlike the crucifixion, most likely didn't happen, I'm not going to consider it a world-changing event.

As for the importance of the crucifixion in Christianity - again read the gospels, the Passion story of Jesus is the central event of the books, the climax towards which they are directed. As for what was different, obviously it was the fact that the Romans killed Jesus that was different. Jesus' death led to the formation of a new Jewish cult among his followers, one that eventually became the biggest religion in the world.

Finally, yes, it is possible that in the possible world where Jesus wasn't killed that he still goes on to found a major world religion. However, I think it is very unlikely. The prior probability of Jesus being the inspiration/founder of a major world religion is very low, so if you take away any one of the contingent factors that contributed to it actually happening and roll the dice again it most likely wouldn't have happened.
Original Position is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 10:34 AM   #33
Original Position
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Original Position's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 6,701
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlicksTracey View Post
So all you have is more claims?



My view is that Christianity (and every other religion) is a scam.




More claims.
Okay.
Original Position is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 12:14 PM   #34
Loading....
journeyman
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 310
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pokerlogist View Post
This quote by Loading... in post #5 is false. The phrase "god of this world" refers to false gods of humankind on earth, not to Satan. The word Satan is not in that sentence in any valid version of the Bible. It changes the meaning of the passage. He also misinterprets other quotes which I have no time to correct.
- 2nd Corinthians 4:4

You are wrong because false gods neither "see nor hear nor eat nor smell." They have no power. But Satan is the prince of the air and the "deceiver of the whole world."

http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html

Most agree with me that this verse refers to Satan.

Last edited by Loading....; 07-20-2016 at 12:24 PM.
Loading.... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 12:28 PM   #35
FlicksTracey
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 125
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
Okay.
So you agree that god and jesus are an invention and Christianity is a scam based on these inventions?
FlicksTracey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 12:44 PM   #36
spanktehbadwookie
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
spanktehbadwookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: River Region
Posts: 17,865
Re: Christianity is a scam

Light bulbs were invented, seeing at night is a scam.
spanktehbadwookie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 12:54 PM   #37
Original Position
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Original Position's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 6,701
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlicksTracey View Post
So you agree that god and jesus are an invention and Christianity is a scam based on these inventions?
No.
Original Position is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 01:08 PM   #38
FlicksTracey
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 125
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
No.
Okay.
FlicksTracey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 01:49 PM   #39
Mightyboosh
mmm mmm good
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mount Olympus
Posts: 4,971
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
Well, since the resurrection, unlike the crucifixion, most likely didn't happen, I'm not going to consider it a world-changing event.

As for the importance of the crucifixion in Christianity - again read the gospels, the Passion story of Jesus is the central event of the books, the climax towards which they are directed. As for what was different, obviously it was the fact that the Romans killed Jesus that was different. Jesus' death led to the formation of a new Jewish cult among his followers, one that eventually became the biggest religion in the world.

Finally, yes, it is possible that in the possible world where Jesus wasn't killed that he still goes on to found a major world religion. However, I think it is very unlikely. The prior probability of Jesus being the inspiration/founder of a major world religion is very low, so if you take away any one of the contingent factors that contributed to it actually happening and roll the dice again it most likely wouldn't have happened.
Whether it happened, or didn't happen, it's the belief that it did which was what changed everything because it supports what followed and that Jesus was the son of god. Does Christianity work at all without the resurrection story? So I think the truth of it is immaterial, although it isn't and really couldn't be questioned within the religion that it probably caused. Without the resurrection myth, Jesus gets crucified and possibly that's the end of Christianity despite the best effort of the disciples (whose existence was being called into question in an article I was reading earlier).

That the gospels focus on it isn't what supports it's contribution to what Christianity became, that could have been a retrospective focus on an event that actually played a minor part to the resurrection but which it suited the authors of the gospels to focus on because of the support it offers for various divine theories like Jesus having 'died for our sins'. The crucifixion can be portrayed as having been hugely important, it could be portrayed really in anyway they saw fit, but I would say that logically, it couldn't have been as important as the resurrection because dying on the cross isn't what made him the son of god. Religions have foundered with the killing of their main 'character', why is this one different? Isn't it because he claimed, and was proven by the resurrection, to be the son of god?
Mightyboosh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 02:26 PM   #40
carlo
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,434
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh View Post

That the gospels focus on it isn't what supports it's contribution to what Christianity became, that could have been a retrospective focus on an event that actually played a minor part to the resurrection but which it suited the authors of the gospels to focus on because of the support it offers for various divine theories like Jesus having 'died for our sins'. The crucifixion can be portrayed as having been hugely important, it could be portrayed really in anyway they saw fit, but I would say that logically, it couldn't have been as important as the resurrection because dying on the cross isn't what made him the son of god. Religions have foundered with the killing of their main 'character', why is this one different? Isn't it because he claimed, and was proven by the resurrection, to be the son of god?
I don't know of other religions in which the founder was executed unless we are talking of the mystery centers in which the would be initiate was placed into a trance state, not unlike death, only to be resurrected as a new man.

Christ Jesus, in his life of 3 years since the baptism by John, went through the mystery center initiation in a reality, not in secret, but within the eyes of the whole world in which he actually went through death .

You're right about one thing of the utmost importance, which is the matter of the resurrection. Somewhere in the works relating to Paul he states "if He has not risen we are lost".
carlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 02:27 PM   #41
Original Position
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Original Position's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 6,701
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh View Post
Whether it happened, or didn't happen, it's the belief that it did which was what changed everything because it supports what followed and that Jesus was the son of god. Does Christianity work at all without the resurrection story? So I think the truth of it is immaterial, although it isn't and really couldn't be questioned within the religion that it probably caused. Without the resurrection myth, Jesus gets crucified and possibly that's the end of Christianity despite the best effort of the disciples (whose existence was being called into question in an article I was reading earlier).
Without the resurrection, Christianity would be a different religion, but there is no reason in principle why it couldn't be successful without it. After all, today we have many liberal Christians who reject the claim that the Resurrection is an event of history.

But regardless, my primary point here is not about whether the crucifixion is the most important event relating to Christianity (I don't think it is), but whether it is of sufficient importance that, given the overall historical significance of Christianity, it should itself be regarded as an event of historical significance. For instance, here are a few others:

1) Conversion of Paul and his career and writings as a missionary.
2) Constantine's conversion and the ending of Christian persecution.
3) The Council of Nicea and the creation of Christian orthodoxy.
4) Martin Luther's nailing of the 57 Theses.

My guess is that most reputable general history books covering these eras would talk about these events.

Quote:
That the gospels focus on it isn't what supports it's contribution to what Christianity became, that could have been a retrospective focus on an event that actually played a minor part to the resurrection but which it suited the authors of the gospels to focus on because of the support it offers for various divine theories like Jesus having 'died for our sins'. The crucifixion can be portrayed as having been hugely important, it could be portrayed really in anyway they saw fit, but I would say that logically, it couldn't have been as important as the resurrection because dying on the cross isn't what made him the son of god. Religions have foundered with the killing of their main 'character', why is this one different? Isn't it because he claimed, and was proven by the resurrection, to be the son of god?
Lot's of people, including contemporaries and near-contemporaries of Jesus, claimed to be of divine origin. Jesus claiming to be the "son of god" is not clearly a claim (as it is often taken to be now) to be the God of Abraham. So I'm not sure that is very special.

Truthfully, my guess is that Christianity became the biggest religion in the world primarily through luck rather than any unique characteristics of its theology or practice.
Original Position is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 02:31 PM   #42
Original Position
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Original Position's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 6,701
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlo View Post
I don't know of other religions in which the founder was executed unless we are talking of the mystery centers in which the would be initiate was placed into a trance state, not unlike death, only to be resurrected as a new man.

Christ Jesus, in his life of 3 years since the baptism by John, went through the mystery center initiation in a reality, not in secret, but within the eyes of the whole world in which he actually went through death .

You're right about one thing of the utmost importance, which is the matter of the resurrection. Somewhere in the works relating to Paul he states "if He has not risen we are lost".
Joseph Smith was murdered by a mob after being arrested on criminal charges.
Original Position is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 02:50 PM   #43
carlo
veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,434
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
Joseph Smith was murdered by a mob after being arrested on criminal charges.
OK, sounds good.
carlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 06:47 PM   #44
cilderr
adept
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 743
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by spanktehbadwookie View Post
Light bulbs were invented, seeing at night is a scam.
well it is, but ur only scamming the night out of its darkness not stupid ppl out of their time/money/freedom.
cilderr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 06:48 PM   #45
well named
poorly undertitled
 
well named's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: esse est coesse
Posts: 73,221
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position View Post
4) Martin Luther's nailing of the 57 Theses.
95 right? The 57 theses were made by Heinz.
well named is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 07:41 PM   #46
Zeno
Le Misanthrope
 
Zeno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Spitsbergen
Posts: 14,847
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by well named View Post
95 right? The 57 theses were made by Heinz.
Fifty-seven is a good number:

Zeno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 08:21 PM   #47
esspoker
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,037
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Peter View Post
If Paul was a charlatan, what does your NT look like?
I stick with the words in red.
esspoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 08:25 PM   #48
FlicksTracey
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 125
Re: Christianity is a scam

Martin Luther was a great man.
Not because he created a new branch in a cult full of worthless woo but for the fact that this allmighty skydaddy watched it and did absolutely nothing about it.

Despite numerous claims of having interacted with human beings, allmighty skydaddy did NOT purge the catholic church for acting like a warehouse, skydaddy did NOT say "Well, luther, creating new branches of the church is MY job",
skydaddy did NOT purge both branches, screaming: "HUMANS, LET ME GIVE YOU AN UPDATE ABOUT HOW TO WORSHIP ME!"

he did nothing and let the catholic warehouse branch of woo co-exist (minus the warehouse ofc) with the newer branch of woo.

100% proof that he does not exist. Christianity, no matter which branch, has been and is a scam up to this very day.
FlicksTracey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 09:18 PM   #49
esspoker
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,037
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlicksTracey View Post
Martin Luther was a great man.
Not because he created a new branch in a cult full of worthless woo but for the fact that this allmighty skydaddy watched it and did absolutely nothing about it.

Despite numerous claims of having interacted with human beings, allmighty skydaddy did NOT purge the catholic church for acting like a warehouse, skydaddy did NOT say "Well, luther, creating new branches of the church is MY job",
skydaddy did NOT purge both branches, screaming: "HUMANS, LET ME GIVE YOU AN UPDATE ABOUT HOW TO WORSHIP ME!"

he did nothing and let the catholic warehouse branch of woo co-exist (minus the warehouse ofc) with the newer branch of woo.

100% proof that he does not exist. Christianity, no matter which branch, has been and is a scam up to this very day.

It's not a scam to follow a teaching. If the teaching gets you to pay them money, then it can be a scam. But it's possible to be a Christian and not go to church, and not pay the church money. So by definition, it's not a scam.

Now, any time you have a great teacher, like Jesus, people will come to distort his teachings and exploit his teachings. I believe the devil is a metaphor for this kind of lying, among others. Using goodness in the service of evil. Leading the flock away from the true teaching.
esspoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2016, 09:26 PM   #50
FlicksTracey
banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 125
Re: Christianity is a scam

Quote:
Originally Posted by esspoker View Post
It's not a scam to follow a teaching. If the teaching gets you to pay them money, then it can be a scam. But it's possible to be a Christian and not go to church, and not pay the church money. So by definition, it's not a scam.

Now, any time you have a great teacher, like Jesus, people will come to distort his teachings and exploit his teachings. I believe the devil is a metaphor for this kind of lying, among others. Using goodness in the service of evil. Leading the flock away from the true teaching.
LOL, why quote my post when you ignore 100% of it?
FlicksTracey is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online