Hi All,

I wanted to make a thread where people can ask questions about Christianity and I can provide explanations/clarificaiton on what is biblicial and upheld by mainstream evangelical Christians. There are good arguements against Christianity but there are also lots of really bad arguements and accusations the are simply not true. I would hope to debunk the many misconceptions of what the Bible teaches.

Hopefully we can afford each other mutual respect and both increase our knowledge of other people's world view.

Ask away.

For clarification, you are yourself an Evangelical Christian? I'm curious to know what your background is and how it qualifies you to give an accurate accounting.

Hi

How do Evangelical Christians answer the Euthyphro dilemma, commonly expressed as "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

Hi Ace,

Yes I am an evangelical Christian. I have been a Christian since I was 19. I have attended many churches internationally and studied at Bible college for 2 years. The bible school I attended is Capernwray Harbour Bible Centre if you want to check it out online. I feel I have a pretty good handle on what is biblical vs. what a Christian sect may be practicing. I am not a scholar, however I can hopefully provide insight to people with very little or no Christain background.

Thanks. I am familiar with the Capernwray schools.

I am assuming that your ascent/descent into Christianity was by way of a strong argument for Christianity, perhaps you can briefly outline the argument that convinced you? If your Christianity was brought on by way of a touching personal experience/revelation how do you respond to the observation that no religion is without it's own set of personal experiences/revelations, so why would yours constitute proof where theirs would not?

Hi Zumby I am glad you dropped in. I enjoyed our debates in other threads. Unfortunately those threads were busy with so much other discussion going on it was difficult to carry on a conversation. Anyhow on to your question:

In short, I don’t know. That is the honest answer. But I will do my best. What God commands and what God does in an extension of His character. As I am sure you know most Christians don’t think in terms of the Euthyphro dilemma (maybe they should). God embodies justice and lives/acts out of His character. The difference between humans and God is that God is 100% consistent.
This is by no means a final answer to Euthyphro dilemma. I doubt this is to your satisfaction but maybe other Christians can answer better (this is something I want to check into more since the 1st time you asked me).

Personal experience is not a good basis for a belief system. It may constitute part of the belief system of the person who experienced it – but what about everyone else? All belief systems are comprised by fact and faith working together. Christianity is not asking people to have blind faith without questioning or reasoning. Personally I became convinced of Christianity based on biblical teaching and seeing how the world makes sense through this lens.

I have had touching personal experiences but they don't make up a large portion of the basis of my belief system.

Indeed. The problem is that there are only bad arguments FOR Christianity. Unless, that is, whether you can supply one now.

Okay, fair enough. But I only really asked you to elaborate on the personal experience bit if your conversion was as a result of one. You spent a bit of time talking about why personal experience wasn't a good foundation for belief, but you've pretty much omitted any of the real detail about why you found Christianity to be compelling or convincing? What is it about Biblical teaching or which Biblical teachings in particular did you find to be logically convincing?

Are you supposed to chop off your hand if you have used it masturbate?

What is hell?

When I was a kid I stole something, but I lost it so I think it is ok- but I didn't own up to it. Do I have say a prayer to God to say I'm sorry?

I will go into my story a bit. I was raised in a Christian family and my parents were actually missionaries in the Philippines. I grew up from age 3-14 in Manila, Philippines. When I was 18 and went to Bible School I wasn't really sure what I believed. During the 2 years of Bible teaching I slowly became convinced of Christianity and that the Bible was true. My goal initially at Bible School was to never open my bible all year. I only lasted 3 months and then I think I had to open it to do an assignment.
Not meaning to dodge your question but it is difficult to be concise aobut all the teachings of the bible and why I think they ring true.

A good starting point is the sin nature of humans. This makes a lot of sense to me. Islam for example teaches that babies are not born sinful but without sin - innocent. I know myself and I know my propensity is toward what is not good. I do not naturally lean toward doing good.

I will assume you are being serious and give you a sincere answer:

1. You dont need to cut your hand off.
2. Huge topic - to be concise hell is eternal seperation from God
3. You don't have to do anything you dont want to do. Is there any way to repay what you stole or make it right with the person/company?

The whole point of Jesus' death was to pay the penalty for our sins. If you stole that is a sin. When Jesus died he paid the price for all the sin of the world - past, present, future. So if you feel you need forgiveness for your sin you can ask God.

Let's say that you are correct and that it is the case that humans have a bent towards doing what is wrong (although I honestly don't believe this at all, nor do I experience it personally, nor do I get the sense that every inclination or most inclination of mans heart are evil, but nonetheless) why do you find an elaborate story about Adam & Eve and a garden and a snake and a tree of knowledge of good and evil to be a more plausible explanation of a phenomenon which is equally explained by an observation like "natural selection benefits a creature that is cunning and ruthless in it's behavior and as a result it should not be unusual that we observe creatures (humans) with the propensity towards 'evil' "? It accounts for the same exact sensory data that you observe, but it accounts for it without positing mythical beings that none but thousand year old texts claim to have witnessed.

In summary, what in the world makes the leap from your personal observation (which we previously established shouldn't be the basis for a belief system) that men are evil, to the acceptance of a mythical story a reasonable leap, a leap that thoughtful people themselves should consider making?


Edit to add that I want to make certain you know that I was pulling that scientific theory to account for the evils of man out of thin air as a way of illustrating my point.

Of course sincere.

genesis 38:9

But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. So whenever he went in to his brother’s wife he would waste the semen on the ground, so as not to give offspring to his brother. 10 And what he did was wicked in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

Well I was hoping I could chop my hand off because the lord seems kind fo scary in this verse. Is it ok if it is not my brothers wife? So it's bad if I pull out and spill? Or spill on the ground anytime?

You have heard that it was said, i‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that jeveryone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 kIf your right eye lcauses you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into mhell. 30 kAnd if your right hand lcauses you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into mhell.

this verse also, matthew 5:27
Metaphor for 'forget about it, move on don't do it again'
'Cut off the thought process that caused it'

What of burning lakes of fire? Eternal torture? Is it that or not? I don't mind being separated from god- I just hate the idea of prolonged boredom, which seems what an eternity in heaven would be like for my soul- should it be the sort to which goes other places and comprises of my life gained knowledge.


No. It wasn't much anyway. I also stole an ever lasting gobstopper. So if I don't have to do anything, how do you know when you do? I don't go around commiting immoral acts but the Bible is not very clear is it? Surely I have to apologise to god for stealing a gobstopper the same as committing a true atrocity?

Hi Uke Master,

There are good arguements for Christianity. Zumby's thread about "strongest arguements for Christianity" is a good outline. Are there any specific Christian teachings you question?

Those are canoncial arguments for desim (not christianity) and while some of them are a little tricky to demonstrate why they are bad for someone who doesn't have experience arguing in philosophy, but they are all bad arguments and not a single one is compelling. Besides, by the time one gets around to resorting to these kind of philosophical a priori arguments, it is a complete capitulation to the view that there is no tangible evidence that actually demonstrates the existence of this god. You are the one claiming some extraordinary thing is true, so you have the burden to demosntrate why you think there is any reason or shred of evidence to suggest it is true. So what are you reasons?

I just thought, I think if you are a Christian for a reason(evidence/logic based), then it is like only being a Christian because you want a reward and want to avoid sin(punishment), opposed to naturally adhering to its moral system. So having a reason to Support Christianity - false Christian. I think you are suppose to just be so touched by the story of Jesus that you naturally agree with it/trust in it. This is all assuming Christianity is correct. The question itself is a trick one.

In that sense I can see this 'true faith' and 'Judged by inner heart/thoughts' concept a little better.

Reminds me of some obviously Christians I saw giving blankets out to homeless. LOOK AT ME GOD I'M BEING A CHRISTIAN

Same with those people that picket soldiers funerals.

FishNoob,

Masturbation is not a sin. At least it is not mentioned directly in the Bible. What is a sin is lust. Calling out lust as sin (including intent) is what Jesus was referring to. IMO Jesus asking people to cut off thier hands could be paraphrased to mean "hey take this seriously". Jesus is pointing out that the spiritual implications of what we do and think are more weighty than our temporal physical world.

I don't know what Hell is like. Yes there are passages about: weeping, torment, outer darkness,

Heaven is not boring.

Re stolen sweets:
The crux of christianity is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. He died for ALL the sins of humans. This includes stealing everlasting gobstoppers. So the sin of stealing that candy is really already dealt with by Jesus on the cross. If you want that forgiveness that is up to you.

The reason I said "you don't have to do anything" is that you are not obligated as a human to do anything. You are free to steal if you want to. However according to the teaching of Christianity if you wanted to accept God's prepaid forgiveness you could just confess your sin to God.

Very confusing but ok ty for response.

There is no tangible evidence that actually demonstrates the existence of God.
I agree with this.

There are elements of faith required for Christanity, but I do believe there is empirical fact as well that support Christianity. I refer you to D.C. Parker's "An Indtroduction to the New Testament Manuscripts and their Texts". If you google this you can find the entire document online. This is a dense document but my point is that there were many biblical manuscripts discovered. Who wrote these documents and whether or not they are true is open for debate.

hi lemonzest,

are you familiar with how the bible was constructed? i am curious as to how it was explained to you in bible college regarding which texts were "thrown out" of the bible and why?

thank you!

Regarding your blanket story:
I can see where you are coming from. You seem jaded, but hey I am jaded too thats fine. Maybe its just being realistic. Those people might have been giving blankets to feel better about themselves. They may have done it to look good in front of their peers. They may have done it to look good in front of God. But according to Christian teaching the pure motivation is out of gratitude to God. The idea is if God forgave all our sins by sending Jesus to die for us then who are we to remain selfish? The response God wants is sincere gratitude and generosity on the part of the forgiven person.

Regarding your first point about "being so touched by Jesus"

Yes the idea is that Jesus' forgivenss for your personal sin moves you to forgive and love others having "seen" his example. I am not a Christian only because of logic, but there is a logical side to Christianity that is not emotion based.

also, what did your bible college teach you regarding evolution?

thank you!

Hi Augie,

I can refer you to R.A. Baker's "How the New Testament Canon was Formed".
It is available online.
Long story short the New Testament developed in the 300 years following Jesus' death.

So? there are manuscripts for all kinds of things. How is this an argument for why we should Christianity is less of a laughable human intervention than every other religion?

The interesting question is if there is no evidence and no reason to believe something, why would you do this? Faith is hardly a good thing, it is but an excuse for people who have no evidence and have no rationale but want to jsutify their belief nonetheless. In no other domain of human knowledge would we consider it acceptable.