A+ post.

I was reading part of the OT last night when I noticed that God came down in his cloud of glory to inhabit the Temple built in Solomon's era. So it seems there was another group revelation to the Jews besides the national one on Mt. Sinai but you have to be paying attention to notice things like that.

Solomon lived quite a bit later than Moses, too.

See verses 10 and 11:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt09a08.htm

Also God descends in a pillar cloud on the temple each year on the day of atonement and consume the sacrifice:
http://www.biblicaltheology.com/1ki/11_08_22.html

I think your guess is way off. Most atheists on this forum (at least according to my recollection based on polls in the past) were believers at one time. Many of us were raised in the faith of our families, we went to church, sunday school, some served as acolytes, etc. It was through pursuing our faith that the problems arose.

I think this is important because your response shows that you're erroneously prejudging the people asking the questions. Many of the atheists asking these questions grew up with the Bible, have studied it, etc. So your attempting to dismiss their questions because they don't know god as well as you do is poor.

Its the inability of Christians to take on these questions in a substative way that non-believers find compelling that looks bad for the religion, imo.

tee hee. Air tight.

as the christians love to say, god heard your prayer, the answer was "no". Just because if you pray to God your life is no different then if you pray to Zeus, a rock, a cheese sandwich or not don't pray at all... doesn't mean that god doesn't answer prayers!

I could easily create a thread called "The real world doesn't conform to the religion I have defined, therefore..." but I don't think I have the strength to read all the bible verses I'd get thrown at me.

I usually just stop reading posts with people who quote a lot of verse. Or just skip the verses.

Though Pletho isn't left with much except his self-contratulating about how he's got all the answers and how no one understands anything except him.

You forgot the part about where you ask for these answers he supposedly has and he gets all huffy and says that unbelievers don't deserve the answers. Then if you press on him he throws random verses about goats or sheep or something at you. Then he congratulates himself for how he has all the...look at me, now I'M the one getting all circular.

I have not actually heard that Augustine quote. And it's very close to my thought, but not quite the same. I would amend the second half to be "one cannot FULLY know what He is." There are aspects of God which can be understood, but only partially.

I'm specifically holding the "Christian God" in discussion here as opposed to "God" as the abstract object that I believe you hold in your mind. This distinction may clarify my thoughts for you a little more. This opens up the door for revelation that Christians believe God has done to enter into the discussion. If you reject that revelation, I would agree that you have to fall back to a more abstract "God."

Misdirect much?

How else are we ever supposed to know God if we can't trust the definitions of him as we understand them?

Let's look at another example of what you're saying.

God "created" everything. How can we know what that even means? Maybe it really means he took a dump and our universe is inside his crap just floating around in some sewer wherever he lives. But what does a "house" even mean when it comes to God? Maybe he's living inside the vagina of a 10,000 year old squirrel, and we're floating around in his crap inside a sewer system.



I think I have you figured out. You're a very, very smart guy. You've encountered arguments about your God that you can't logical refute so you've turned to the whole, "our definitions are meaningless when it comes to God..." in order to stop the seed of doubt from spreading inside you.

And, yes, "answer" a prayer means "get what I want." Or are you thinking it means every time we pray God creates a kitten for us and raises them until we get to heaven?

fyOP

Well I'm pretty sure that St. Augustine was talking specifically about the Christian God.

But I said this is "weird", because your limit of partial knowledge applies to every concept constructed through language! For example, how much time have people spent asking themselves, "Who am I, exactly?" All answers will seem approximate.

But even for a prosaic concept like 'doorknob'...you cannot FULLY know "what a doorknob is." List as many attributes and examples as you want, it will still be possible to imagine another case where something seems to be a doorknob; but falls outside your definition. (So you haven't shown the true nature of a doorknob!)

The process of "maturing" as a Christian can rightly be viewed as "conforming" to God. When you are an "immature" Christian, you usually don't resemble God very much. Over time, your views are conformed (in some rough approximation) to God's views.

You are welcome to infer whatever you choose to infer. That you think you have me "figured out" and feel it is useful to make this particular claim publicly probably says more about you than it says about me.

If this is the definition of an "answer" to prayer, then

Any interpretation of the Bible that keeps God in a higher position than man does not require God to answer all of our prayers in the affirmative.

fyp to make it more compelling.

you can go that route if you want to...but if Jesus only meant that his diciples prayers would be answered...why do millions and millions of Christians pray nightly. why do Christian leaders tell their followers to pray. why do faith healers rely on asking God for healing and expect people to be healed?

i honestly hope your translation is correct. id prefer it. and i wish every Christian knew that they're prayers were in vain, and that Jesus only meant that his diciples prayers would be answered.

spread the Word.

edit: upon rereading your response, i dont even understand how its a response to my passages. the bible is RIDDLED with statements about the efficacy or prayer. you think Luke 9:51-55 somehow clears that up? it barely even addresses it. does prayer work, or doesn't it?

Except that this only happens to some people and not to others. And then when it happens, it happens in exactly the same way and to exactly the same extent that we would independently expect based on human psychology (never more, never in a manner inconsistent with conditioning as observed throughout humanity, and never to outcomes that are dissimilar to those present in many unbelievers).

This is no new concept exclusive to Christianity. Read this closely, and this describes "brainwashing" to me. Over time, tell me a duck is not a duck but is actually a sheep, and someday, I'm just gonna give up and call a duck a sheep.

I just can't bring myself to believe that someone as smart as you hasn't had some serious doubts about the validity of Christianity.

If you want to be a deist, be a deist.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

How bout this interpretation...

-We are to worship God and he is in a higher position than us. We are below him.

-In the bible it tells me MULTIPLE times that if I ask for something I will receive it from God.

-God is not required to answer every request because he never promises to. But he damn well better answer a good amount, because he's coming at me all confident like and making me excited to follow him by promising me good fortune. I like getting things for nothing, and if I have to worship this dude to get some stuff, I'll do it.


Now, I'm not saying every Christian follows the religion only to get stuff they want. But you said any interpretation which is quite a bold claim. Bottom line is the promises of Jesus can more easily be interpreted to mean the majority of prayers/requests will be answered than not.


I remember when I first watched some of the atheist/theist debates on youtube with some super smart theist. I was genuinely interested to see if they had some great point that I had yet to hear. But, no matter how many degrees they have behind them they still say the most ridiculous things and it never fails.

Brainwashing is a misleading concept because it fails to recognize many believers believe voluntarily and it totally disregards the positive spiritual bent that the majority of people have.

Brainwashing is a term that the group with less spirituality wields heavy handedly against the group that has more spirituality. Its unfair to categorize another person's spirituality negatively because you personally don't like the forms it takes. A little bit like hating someone for the way they wear their hair.

It is a perjorative term to apply to spiritual people because it indicates a negative cavalier judgment on people without dealing with each individual as an individual case or recognizing that spirituality is a universally innate natural characteristic.

So does this imply that you feel every person is spiritual, even without being a Christian specifically?

I think everyone has a VMAT2:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VMAT-2

Spirituality is connected with the human ability to feel "self transcendence". An ability like that should be universal.

Also spirituality is a component of tribalism a basic form of human grouping still existent today though modern society hides it or doesn't always show its better forms:http://books.google.com/books?id=Qpx...um=1&ct=result

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribalism

Thank you. Good stuff to know.

if you pray for something but have no faith should you get what you ask for?
if you pray for something that will cause harm to others should you get what you ask for?
if you pray for another man's woman or for all women, should you get what you pray for?
if you pray for revenge or the death of another person should you get what you wish for?
if you pray for something that will eventually evolve you into an evil person should you get what you ask for?

Aaron gave you his best educated guess on what God is. you can try to prove the man wrongin his own logic, but that bears no influence on God . logic is relative. faith is relative.

did it every occur to you people that many of the religious people that post on this forum are equally as smart, if not smarter than atheists. that they too also have a rational capacity, and that they came to believe in God in an intelligent manner, the same manner Atheists have used to renounce the belief in God.

no, it has not

My failure to understand the complicated workings of god is because I have not taken the time to understand him, as you say. But isn't it amazing how many people DO understand with amazing accuracy?

I was watching a news story today where a gunman went on a rampage and killed 7 or 8 senior citizens at a nursing home for no reason at all. They interviewed a guy in the parking lot who was shot at, but the bullet missed him and went through the window of his truck. He called it nothing short of an absolute miracle! Isn't that nice? 7-9 defenseless seniors needlessly gunned down in cold blood, but the fact that the gunman somehow missed him was a miracle from god?

WHAT KIND OF WARPED MIND THINKS LIKE THAT?

But I don't get into these elaborate discussions on the complicated nature of god anymore. Show me where god is, first. Then I'll have some questions.