This question is to atheists and agnostics: Why should i convince my flatmate that his religion is false?
I am an atheist, and he is a science student who takes his religion seriously. He generally considers his positions logically. After talking with him He realized that his faith is really just an excuse to ignore reason. He said he will think about it, but we have had exams so i dropped it. But now i can't decide if i want him to lose faith, what good will that bring.
He is a good person who follows his religion closely, all of his friends are of the same religion, his parents would probably stop talking to him. He does good things, and is comforted because of his religion. He does not push it on anyone, he very much lives like his religion says he should. His religion is Bahia, which is one of the more liberal religions.
Obviously this is about more then just my flatmate. This applies to all similar circumstances, why should atheists challenge someones faith when no good will come from it.

If he's already responding to your prodding in this way, he's probably been doubting his faith for a long time. He may have never stopped to actually think about it though.

But yeah, it's obviously better to see the world the way it is. Brave New World etc etc etc.

Wat.. Why is it better to see the world the way it really is, if your going to be unhappy and if it will not help anyone else?

It's only one factor of many into his life. But I seriously doubt if he is happy now, this will turn his life into a miserable suckfest. He may be depressed about it for a time, but in the end I bet you his demeanor will be pretty much the same as before.

But besides that, there is his dignity at stake. Not much dignity in Christianity and most of the other major religions. He has much to gain and absolutely nothing to lose.

Thats a fair point, in general. But in this specific case his parents are very conservative, coming from India. Where changing faith, means that parents will no longer talk to their children. This means that immense pain will be put on him if he becomes an atheist. Truth for the sake of truth does not justify that imo.

Ahhh good old athiest elitism

I cant really answer because i dont know your friend. But i have a few friends who are religious and with some the God atheist stuff is off the table because they dont want to talk about it, which is no problem. With others they do like to discuss God and i like to so we do.

One thing your missing though is when i or someone who doesn't have a belief in God talks to someone who does both sides are challenging each others ideas. Its a two way street.


It does help to challenge some faith. If it didn't we would still be burning people for being witches.

Obviously, I think it's best if ALL people applied rationality to their beliefs. But I won't go out of my way to talk logic about someone's religion unless the subject comes up through natural means. Once it does...

I find the most convincing way to make someone question their beliefs is to first garner their respect for you in other walks of logic and life. Then the best approach is to be very nonchalant about it. This is basically what me to start questioning my own beliefs at around 19 yrs old. This guy whom I had a great deal of respect very casually let on that he thought religion was ridiculous. He wasn't outspoken or brass about it. In fact, I had to do a double take and think about just what he was saying and meant.

Again, I'm just speaking for myself, but I think this had a much greater impact on me than if he had sat me down and started shooting off points about why religion is absurd (like many of us do here). The difference here is that there is no basis of respect, so we try and shove rationality down believer's throats, which has a very low success rate as far as I can tell.

Come to think of it, some of the more powerful conversions to rationality about one's religious beliefs I have seen have all been very subtle. There was the girl who burst into tears in the middle of her professor's biology lecture. He made a very casual reference to the fact that "god" had nothing to do with our place among the species. It hit her like a ton of bricks all at once, and she sobbed that it (her religious beliefs) had all been a lie.

Religious belief is a powerful thing. What's been obvious to me on this forum is that the harder you hit someone with rationality as to the absurdity of their beliefs, the more they resist. The more entrenched they become. And the more they insist on defending their position.

At least that's why I'm finding. If anyone has experience where more aggressive approaches have worked, I'd love to hear them.

It's not exclusive to religion. An exchange on any subject makes better progress when it's framed as a discussion rather than a debate.

You mentioned it having a basis in respect. In my political days I was very successful dealing with entrenched union positions after establishing that I was honest, thoughtful and respectful of their underlying concerns even as I was trying to address them through methods radically different from their current position.

It no different with your spouse or co-workers.

FYP

What dignity? How are you defining dignity here? And what does he have to gain?

Why do people assume a person will become depressed when they live a life as if god exists then have a revelation to become an agnostic or atheist?

As someone who was a believer I can tell you that at the very least, it's quite a shock. As kids, we are comfort and security from our parents. Belief in god, is the grownup version of this comfort and security. Having that ripped away from you is startling. For me, it was depressing, but only for a couple of days. After that, it become enlightening. That's because I was finally able to make sense of the world. It's more important to me, so see things how they really are, than to have a false sense of comfort or security. But I think anyone will have issues in the beginning. The whole way in which you look at the world is different.

African witches and Jesus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9...eature=related

Jesus Camp 1of 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhjIl...eature=related

Above are two of the reasons I chose to speak against literalists and fundamental and basically all fantasy based religions.

I think it my duty to correct poor thinking whatever it is.

I call myself a Deist, my closest label, and recognize that all literalists and fundamentals hurt all religionists and make us the laughing stock of all those who can tell fantasy from reality.

Regards
DL

I can understand that, depends on your level of belief when you become atheist/agnostic. I was raised to believe in god and I did so just because my parents did but I wasn't that into it and when I had my revelation, it didn't really matter to me. In the story you told about that biology girl, she was obviously a devout believer so for her it was earth shattering and provoked tears. And in your example, you were depressed for a couple of days but you felt enlightened. Your "depression" can't even be classified as depression because it only lasted for a couple of days and led to enlightenment which overall bettered your life.

I know I'm going to get a response from Pletho or Gunth that a life without god isn't a complete one and thus you can't be fully happy or "enlightened" WRT earthly matters.

You have more in common with the fundamentalists than you think. They also don't seem to give any consideration to the idea that they just might be wrong. If this is a mischaracterisation of you, then I apologise, but I have to wonder what you think qualifies you to "correct" people.

He has a lot to gain. There is pretty much only dignity in Christianity if you go out, do what Jesus really said and dedicate your life to saving souls. Anything else, and you are sending so many people to hell each month with your inaction. Given the facts of Christianity there is no other course of action that can be justified, unless you just don't care about brown people being tortured for eternity.

He also has a more mature, deeper understanding of the world to gain.

I believe you mean pride, my good man.

Have ye forgotten that ye are Gods?----Jesus' words.
If that is not qualification enough then point out what disqualifies me.
Does your God empower you or does he demand that you always follow.

Like all free will decisions I take the freedom. It cannot be given. not even by God.

Regards
DL

Pride is good.

Even God was proud.

Regards
DL

You really have no business challenging anyone's faith since God is their family and you don't mess with another person's family.

Also the blind should never give advice on how to walk in the world to another blind person who already has a guide.

On top of all that the eternal life option is the biggest option anyone owns. An amateur really shouldn't be messing with things of such importance unless he's got a better option.

If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brother, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he can not be my disciple." John 3:15

Regards
DL

Oh look we picked up another atheist who can't interpret figurative/poetic language.

Sometimes in order to help your family you have to come out of them and stand up for God. How will your family know that God is good if you won't stand up for him?

You can't even stand up yourself if you let your family and friends block out God's work in you.

Also "A prophet is not a prophet in his own land"....Jesus must have known all about the vicissitudes of teen rebellion and sibling rivalry ....or just plain old human pride and how it manifests in various forms like: vanity, envy, etc.

Please PM or post help regarding this issue.

So Christians should be able to challenge all others beliefs or non beliefs on earth but everyone else should stfu?

Being born again is a process. Its not magical thinking or presto chango.

A long explanation: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/law/prayer/files/prayer2.htm

Then again standing up might be my gift. I suspect some people are made to do it.