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Old 09-23-2017, 11:29 PM   #1
Aaron W.
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Catholicism is getting interesting...

The growing schism in Catholicism mirrors the schism in society in general.

(1)

https://apnews.com/feb3193a715d44cb852f853b907b65e0

Quote:
Several dozen tradition-minded Roman Catholic theologians, priests and academics have formally accused Pope Francis of spreading heresy with his 2016 opening to divorced and civilly remarried Catholics.

...

None of the signatories of the new letter is a cardinal, and the highest-ranking churchman listed is actually someone whose organization has no legal standing in the Catholic Church: Bishop Bernard Fellay, superior of the breakaway Society of St. Pius X. Several other signatories are well-known admirers of the old Latin Mass which Fellay’s followers celebrate.
(2)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...aking-revenge/

Quote:
After a gunman killed 49 people at Pulse, a predominantly gay nightclub in Orlando in 2016, I found myself disappointed that more Catholic leaders did not offer support to the LGBT community. And that the few who did found it difficult to acknowledge that LGBT people specifically had been targeted for murder.

For me, that silence highlighted a certain failure to be compassionate to the LGBT community even in a moment of tragedy. It also revealed that the LGBT community was still largely invisible to some church authorities. In response, I recorded a brief video that was posted on Facebook. It offered some support for the LGBT community during a terribly difficult few weeks.

...

Now, in the past few weeks, three lectures I was invited to have been canceled, and I have been targeted by some far-right groups whose actions betray a level of homophobia that is hard to fathom. These groups, a kind of Catholic alt-right, are increasingly attempting to substitute themselves for legitimate Church authority by passing judgments on which Catholics are orthodox and which are not. “Heresy” is a word they use as frequently as “and” and “the.”

...

The far-right backlash has led, perhaps inevitably, to the cancellation (or rescheduling) of several speaking events: First, at Cafod, the overseas aid agency of the bishops of England and Wales. Second, the Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulcher, a Catholic group that had invited me to speak at its fall investiture dinner. And, finally, the Theological College at the Catholic University of America, the university’s seminary, which had invited me to speak to its alumni. Each of these talks was not about LGBT issues, but about Jesus. And in each of the cities in which the talk was scheduled, the local bishop (in each case a cardinal) had no qualms about the upcoming lecture.

Everyone who communicated their decisions did so with great anguish. In the case of the last two — the Order of the Holy Sepulchre and Theological College — the organizers admitted that they were responding to people who had been persuaded by online campaigns of far-right sites designed to lead people to view me as a heretic, even though I am what Catholics call a “priest in good standing” and the book had been vetted and endorsed by legitimate Church authorities. Theological College told me that people had been phoning in and “screaming” at the receptionists there.
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Old 09-25-2017, 12:22 PM   #2
festeringZit
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

Protestant denominations have been going through the same struggles.

Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...518-story.html
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:11 AM   #3
Toe Jam and Earl
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

The Catholic Church won't change its teachings. There may be dissenters, but the church as a whole will never accept homosexuality as anything other than disordered/sin.

The Church is filled with sinners and even more so with people who don't agree with or follow its other teachings. So of course they should come to church, but the Church won't start believing homosexuality is OK any more than it will start believing fornication, masturbation, murder, suicide is OK.
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Old 10-05-2017, 11:27 AM   #4
Aaron W.
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

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Originally Posted by Toe Jam and Earl View Post
The Catholic Church won't change its teachings. There may be dissenters, but the church as a whole will never accept homosexuality as anything other than disordered/sin.

The Church is filled with sinners and even more so with people who don't agree with or follow its other teachings. So of course they should come to church, but the Church won't start believing homosexuality is OK any more than it will start believing fornication, masturbation, murder, suicide is OK.
While I think this is true, you seem to have either misread or completely did not read the articles.
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Old 10-05-2017, 12:23 PM   #5
Toe Jam and Earl
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
While I think this is true, you seem to have either misread or completely did not read the articles.
Why do you say that? As my post relates to schism, there will be the Church and then there will be those in schism with the Church. There have been numerous schism's throughout history and i would expect that most of them mirror society as a whole as Christians live in society with everyone else. It would be much more interesting if this schism in the Church was happening at a time when secular society was much more conservative.
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Old 10-05-2017, 03:40 PM   #6
Aaron W.
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe Jam and Earl View Post
Why do you say that? As my post relates to schism, there will be the Church and then there will be those in schism with the Church. There have been numerous schism's throughout history and i would expect that most of them mirror society as a whole as Christians live in society with everyone else.
Yes, but you seem to have a picture of what that schism looks like, and it appears to be completely different from the schism that actually exists as expressed by the articles.

So I said that because I really think that either (1) you didn't even read the articles or (2) you did not understand what you read.
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Old 10-05-2017, 05:17 PM   #7
Toe Jam and Earl
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
Yes, but you seem to have a picture of what that schism looks like, and it appears to be completely different from the schism that actually exists as expressed by the articles.

So I said that because I really think that either (1) you didn't even read the articles or (2) you did not understand what you read.
My thoughts are a view from 30,000 feet, but of your two choices i guess it's (2). What do you find so interesting about the articles?
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Old 10-05-2017, 06:35 PM   #8
Aaron W.
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

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Originally Posted by Toe Jam and Earl View Post
My thoughts are a view from 30,000 feet, but of your two choices i guess it's (2). What do you find so interesting about the articles?
The traditional schisms are formed via splits between the top and the bottom of the hierarchy and cleave from there. In this case, the top and bottom of the hierarchy are much more closely aligned, and the schism is being created from the middle of the structure.

That you somehow wanted to make this about the Catholic church not changing when the most game-changing of popes is changing the game is what made it sound like you don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:21 PM   #9
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

I believe the Catholic Church will eventually accept active homosexuality in its members so long as they tend toward monogamy and otherwise follow the teachings of the Church.

the Church is already changing to be more inclusive:
The Pope Francis Statement That Changed the Church on LGBT Issues
Quote:
"If someone is gay and searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?" -Pope Francis
Quote:
A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being. -Pope Francis
Quote:
Pope Francis suggested the church could be open to civil unions — March 5, 2014
Francis said in an interview that the church could be open to same-sex civil unions, a view he had first voiced as archbishop of Buenos Aires.
a parallel example: the Hare Krishnas view sex as illicit unless for procreation. yet its founder Srila Prabhupada, in response to a gay devotee saying they had great difficulty being celibate, is reputed to have said: "Then just find a nice boy, stay with him and practice Krsna consciousness."

in an increasingly liberal world, faith leaders will be more tolerant of deviation on the margins so long as the fundamentals of the religion are maintained. in Christianity a fundamental message is "Jesus died for your sins" not "homosex is Wrong" imo.
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:02 PM   #10
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Re: Catholicism is getting interesting...

The few Catholic masses I attended in Manhattan in the last two or three years had openly gay couples. Not many and to be honest most kept to themselves.

But church policy is undoubtedly quietly shifting. It wasn’t that long ago people had to march and protest to let gay people attend mass. Now we’re talking about the possibility of civil unions being accepted by the Pope.
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