God's plan is perfect but there maybe different paths that are equally perfect. My prayer may convince him to choose path #2 instead of path #1 thereby granting my request. Either choice he made would end up working out perfectly.

I think I answered your other question in the post right before yours. If not let me know.

That is what superstition does to their thinking.

It's not like God is thinking, "Well I could save those kids or I could help this guy with his test. Screw the kids, I'm helping the guy study." He has time to help us with even the smallest things. In fact, by helping the guy study and pass the test, God may help the guy get a better paying job which would allow him to donate money to save some starving kids.

But he's God. He would already know which perfect plan you would prefer and have already set it in motion. Why does he need to be convinced of something he already knows?

So all of these kids I mowed down get to spend eternity with God? What if they're Muslims? Or children of atheists? How do you know they will now spend eternity in Heaven?

And by this logic, I should be mowing down all the children I can find, because according to you, this will lead more and more people to have a relationship with God. Whatever that is.

By the way, please explain, in detail, what your relationship with God. Does he talk to you? Does he answer your prayers? How do you two communicate? And, how do you know you're not just a crazy person who is hearing voices?

Why wouldn't he choose path 1 if I didn't ask him to choose path 2? Sure he knows I would prefer path 2 but they're equally perfect. Don't have a verse (anyone?) but the Bible says, ask and you shall receive. He knows my wants and needs but he still tells me to pray about them. He wants a relationship with me and that includes talking to him.

I didn't say any of the kids spent eternity with God. I was thinking more on the parents side. The Bible does not specify if children go spend eternity with God if they die before an age where they can understand the concept of God. If they do then it doesn't matter what their parents are or what religion they are being raised in, they still go to heaven. Otherwise, if they don't have a relationship with God then they won't spend eternity with him.

Many have conjectured that young children do go to heaven before they die but the Bible does not say this. However, it doesn't say anything specifically contrary to this either so I can't give you a definitive answer. So no, you shouldn't mow down a bunch of children.

God talks to me through the Bible. It is his words that he has written for me. I pray to him. He doesn't answer my prayers in the sense that he talks to me. I guess He answers my requests by either granting them or not if that's what you mean. No I don't hear voices.

Gods will, meaning his word, is certain, its gauranteed to come to pass. BUT time is involved and peoples decisions.

Here is a simple example. WHY did God wait soo long to send the Christ into this world? Because, His word, which is His will is prophecy. It was foretold a long long time ago that a virgin would have a manchild who would be the Christ, and this child would be the son of God.

The reason it did not happen until it did, is because NO WOMAN believed that it was possible that she could bring to pass the Christ. But God in his infinate foreknowledge of the future, saw a time when a woman named Mary would believe His word, which was spoken by an angel named Gabriel.

This is what was told to her:

Luk 1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour (Grace) with God.

Luk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

Luk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luk 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Luk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Luk 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luk 1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

Mary heard the word of God, the will of God, spoken by the angel, which HAD NOT came to pass as of yet. But very soon after, even within that conversation time wise when she spoke these words "BE IT UNTO ME ACCORDING TO THY WORD", that prophecy came to pass, Gods will was fullfilled. Because Gods word is Gods will.

Not meaning to be a offensive to you at all, but if you cannot understand or do not want to believe, what I just wrote above explaining how this works, then its really futile for me to share anymore.

Because he's God - if he has a plan for you, I would think it would be the best available plan.

I'm not sure this is possible.

Why?

Then why doesn't he just reveal himself to you and talk directly to you?

And please don't start spouting the "God revealing himself would destroy free will and faith" line because it's absurd and doesn't hold water.

So let me get this straight: you're fine with kids being killed in the name of other people getting a closer relationship with God? Even when you're not sure if children go straight to heaven?

What if I mowed down a group of Muslims who have not accepted Jesus Christ? By doing this, their families all realize their religious beliefs were mistaken and they all convert to Christianity, thereby getting a personal relationship with God.

But their loved ones are dead and will not go to Heaven.

This is okay with you?

And how exactly do you know the Bible is the Word of God? (It always comes back to this)

That's okay, Pletho. You didn't offend me. I sort of take everything you say as if I'm speaking language and you're replying by throwing tomatoes at a wall and I'm supposed to understand your meaning from the splotches it makes. In other words, your responses are mostly gibberish to me.

I don't absolutely know why he tells me to pray. My best guess is so I can have a closer relationship with him. Whether it's that or not, has no bearing on my actions. I pray because he tells me to. He's God. He knows what's best. At certain times God does choose to reveal himself directly to people. We see examples of this in the Bible. He has not done so to me. I do not know why he chooses to reveal himself to some people and not others. The Bible doesn't specify. The obvious conclusion is because that is part of his plan. I don't know why that is part of his plan.

LOL! Then why waste my time and ask if you do not really want an answer?

I guess thats the purpose of this forum for most of you? To run around in circles chasing your tail and never catch it?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Do you have any provable examples of God revealing himself to a human that's not in the Bible? If not, why do you think this is?

no, it's because your answers are always opaque, non-informative and cryptic. Your answer to this question specifically really had nothing to do with my question.

But I do appreciate you taking the time to quote all of that scripture. I do not mean for you to waste your time.

I do.........

Cool, I thought that answer was precisely to the point. It revealed how Gods will comes to pass. Which was the point in question.

Mmk this could take a while. I started with the question of where did the universe come from? Either A. the big bang or B. God created it. Both ideas have the same question (Well where did that come from?) and the same basic answer (Matter and energy have always existed/ God has always existed.) Then i look at the world around me. It seems more likely that this amazing, orderly world came from God designing it than it came to be as the eventual result of a giant explosion. Where did the laws of physics and mathematics come from? Either God created them, or they are a result of randomness that occurred immediately following the big bang. The first seems more plausible to me.

So where did life come from? Either God created it or it was a result of evolution. Evolution is a theory with tons of holes in it and little real evidence. If you think of a all powerful God then it is very easy to see how he could create it. Also seeing how things work together in my own life seems to point to the existence of God. So based on those arguments I now have the premise that there is a God.

Next, how do I know that the God of the Bible is the real God? The Bible varies significantly from every other religion. The Bible was written over thousands of years by many different people and yet is consistent throughout. This in and of itself is supernatural. There are many eye witness testimonies that speak to Jesus's miracles. Also the Bible, in books that are thousands of years makes statements about science that were not discovered to be true until the last thousand years or so. The Bible has never been proven false. In fact generally when someone sets out to try to disprove something that the Bible says, they generally end up finding that the Bible was true. This has been the case more many archeological discoveries.

How do I know it hasn't been changed? There are thousands and thousands of copies of the Bible. Many more in fact than copies of Homer's Iliad. It is generally accepted that with all the manuscripts, Homer's Iliad has been reconstructed accurately. Any mistakes in one manuscript are obvious by the hundreds of other that show the correct words. Same thing with the Bible except there are many more manuscripts which leads to even less possibility of an error.

come on. You damn well any evidence you present will not be provable in any sense of the word.

Looked at it again. Nope, don't see it.

t_roy:

I don't know what you mean by it being okay with me. Do I want it to happen? no. I want everyone to accept Christ as their savior. Can I accept it? yes. We all deserve to spend eternity tormented and separated from God. We are sinful creatures. Therefore the fact that anyone can be saved from that is amazing.

1) God made me sinful.
2) I deserve eternal torment for how God created me.
3) I'm a lucky SOB if God, in his infinite wisdom, sees fit to save me.

Is that about right?

Audible evidence that can be heard by the physical ear can not be considered concrete proof?

If thats the case, then words being used for reliable communication are just about useless...

All you're saying here is "I don't know." But you choose to call that ignorance "God." I choose to be fine with the fact that I don't know and don't feel the need to create a mystical sky demon who knows and sees all in order to make sense of the universe.

I can point to several inconsistencies. And why would consistency have to mean supernatural?

same can be said about the Koran and Muhommad, and Harry Potter - so what? It doesn't make those books true.

Name them, please.

Okay, now i'm thinking you're leveling me with this. You can't possibly be this ignorant. Events and things in the Bible can certainly be proven false, if by no other reason than the scientific process. We know it is impossible for a man to live inside of a big fish. Yet, the Bible says it happened. That's not proof of it being divine, by the way...no more than the fact that no book has ever mentioned Orcs in literature besides JRR Tolkien makes The Lord of the Rings divine.

Name ONE archeological discovery that helps prove the Bible is the Word of God. Just because The Great Gatsby takes place during a real period of American history, and in real places, does not make the story true. Similarly, just because certain places in the Bible actually existed does not mean the stories in it actually happened.

Wow. You really need to enroll in a logics course. You're thought process is amazingly faulty. By your logic, what makes the Illiad a mere book and the bible the Word of God?

If you're saying I can hear proof, well...I'm all ears!

If you're saying someone - even yourself - has heard God speaking to him, I have to say that that is not proof. If I told you Santas Claus was speaking directly to me and I could hear him, you'd rightly consider me crazy.

Why should I trust in your hearing God as anything more? How is that proof?

You're just showing the limits of Apologetics. Do you realize that when you keep continuously asking questions people answer but then you just argue and reject their answers if you're not a believer.

There's no rest in that.

All of these theists you are arguing with are sooner or later that day or that week going to get off line and make a prayer or two and get mentally rested and rejuvenated while all the rejecters are just going to be stirred up, stressed out or angry for no reason they can pinpoint. The reason is they didn't get any rest.

You can't explain rest to people who question, question, question but refuse to experience it. Some things are just meant to be experienced.