My contention is this that the big bang is intelligent and therefore can be described as God. Or if you wish the big bang is an intelligent process that is a happening even right now.

Deeper still is that nature itself is intelligent and therefore can also be considered a part of or the whole of God

But back to my main point that the Big Bang is intelligent meaning its process that is still happening now and you're it was a deliberate act of creative intelligent design. In others words a type of order.

Look at a flower or a tree I am saying that it is not chaos but a form of intelligent order in and of itself. How it grows! How it uses the water, air and sun to create its form and so the same with the universe how it arranges itself into order. The sun, the moon, the stars, the worm, the "thing" (whatever you want) is in itself a form of intelligence and a deliberate act.

It didn't bump into something and through chaos spring into life by chance. Its more like a process that has a will of itself to grow into many different shapes, colours, textures, and things it wants to but using its environment intelligently. It uses its environment by realising it is also part of the environment and not separate and therefore does not die but has growth, life, spontaneity etc...

If it was intelligent or if God existed why then are there so many flaws and why is this Universe so un-intelligently designed. Not just this Universe but the Earth too and the people that inhabit it. So many reasons why there is NO intelligent designer at work. Just look around for **** sake. You guys are ****ing lunatics for believing in such nonsensical BS.

If it was so intelligently designed why do we NEED a Moon, why do people NEED to eat, why do we NEED oxygen???? It took billions of years for intelligent life to evolve, took millions of years for this planet to cool and another few billion years for us people to come about. What the hell is intelligent about that? I could list 100s of other things but you get the point. It does not exactly scream intelligence does it? Why have people WORKED so hard in figuring Chemistry and Science out, if it was so intelligently designed it would not have taken us 2 millions years to build a computer, for F sake!!!

There is no designer that's the point I'm making. The things you consider flaws are actually harmony on another level of perspective. For example death is not a flaw in contrast with life the same way cold is not a flaw in contrast with heat.

There is no need for it at all that's the point I'm making. The same way we don't need dance, music or art. So in that respect the universe can be seen as play, a dance, a song something that isn't serious.

You think building a computer is intelligent which is true to some degree on some level. What I am saying is whatever the big bang did is also intelligent and that a mountain is intelligent for example. You see your problem seems to be that you measure intelligence by the standard of man but I ask you is a flower not intelligent? How it grows? Is a bee not intelligent? How it makes honey? Can you make honey? You see what I'm really addressing is how you see the world. You knock it down because other animals plants and insects can't build computers or cars or whatever. Is that the only way to measure intelligence?

You are missing my point completely. If it was created by an intelligent creator why then did it take us 2 million years to create a computer?

We are still evolving as a species and to create nirvana takes a lot of time and effort. I really think we the are creating Nirvana with the help of technology, chemistry science etc. It takes a lot of effort and a lot of time.

Now don't you think if we were intelligently designed it would not of been such a hassle or time consuming project to create a sweet world where we all have a rich and happy life?

Well according to the first sentence of your first post you are linking the big bang with God and that it is intelligent.

Why is it important that computers had to be built instantly? Your missing my point. You don't create a song just to hear the end of it so the same with this.

Yes the big bang is intelligent like any other part of nature.

Are we better off with or without computers right now? If you answer we are better off with computers then that should answer your question why! I also am not good with analogies or whatever you are trying to describe. Can you describe more in depth what I am missing.

We do not even know for certain the big bang even happened but why do you think it is intelligent? Did somebody create the big bang? Do you think this universe behaves rationally?

Why does it have to behave rationally for it to be intelligent?

Nobody created the big bang

In 5000 years I'm sure they will invent something better than computers so why not fast forward to then?

I can enjoy using a horse and cart the fact that cars are around does not subtract from my enjoyment using a horse and cart. So the same with computers. People in the past did enjoy their lives without computers. I'm not sure you understand how evolution works. You start low and work up. But at each point its enjoyable computers or not spaceships or not...understand?

I mean in 50,000 years time people like you would ask the same questions why not start off there....ummm because it's a process.

Fair point, does it behave intelligently then?

Yes.

Not sure I get you, we are clearly better off with computers right, you say we enjoyed our lives before computers, I think that's besides the point. I am not debating enjoyment. I was making a point that I do not think it was intelligent but that we as a human species are intelligent. If we do nothing, create or invent nothing, in my opinion we live miserable lives. Decease, hunger, boring, repetitive etc etc.

Your idea of people having fun etc is pointless imo. Some people would of had decent to very good lives but not the majority, think of this for a second: Most of the population eat and dine the same a King would do a hundred years ago. We all dine and eat like Kings NOW, whereas back then only Kings dined the way we do now.

You asked why it was important to build computers from day 1. Sure you can argue that riding a horse and cart is still fun, my point is more that now everybody can enjoy better things in life, thats why it is important to build computers from day 1 or anything for that matter.

That's why I come to the conclusion that IT is not intelligent, rather WE are.

The Universe/big bang does not behave intelligently or rationally, it does not have feelings or emotions. Have you been to outer space, its a cold and deadly place out there.

Explain why you think it behaves intelligently? It's definitely not taking us into account, we can barely get off this Earth and chances are we might not ever be able to live on another planet, basically in jail here on Earth. How is that intelligent?

The physics guys call it fine tuned. They say since there are infinite possibilities sooner or later you are going to get a universe where life can look into the stars with a telescope. But it is true, there are 100s of things if slightly different there would be no life. The only problem in a multiverse infinite is a large number.

Even Einstein used the word god a lot and Brian Green often says it is entirely possible our universe is some kids computer project he did in his garage for his homework.

There definitely could be people or god watching us in a different dimension, the 5th dimension.

I actually do not think it is fine tuned either. To imply it is, means that it HAS to have been created and that it can be changed or stuff added to or remove stuff. If it is created that would imply that another more advanced being has the power to do stuff with this universe and wouldn't that be obvious to us?

Unless of course I am misunderstanding what fine tune means!

Also as you point out about the kids project analogy, I do not buy that either. That would again imply some super powerful being that created it. We'd have clues that that was the case in my opinion. This Alien who created this universe would easily be able to pull us out of this universe and into his/hers right? Or do some other funky stuff to it, but you never see anything like that.

Another flawed concepts is this world/universe is computer program. I mean why then do we never see anything out of the ordinary? I mean if we live in a program, how hard would it be to just simply program raining trees or raining cars for example. Why do we never see anything weird that the creator/alien programmer does for amusement for him/herself?

The majority of what I know in outer space is dead completely unlivable conditions, not exactly fine tuned if you ask me. In fact if it was fine tuned wouldn't it be more likely that all of our close by planets could support life too?

Fine tuned more means different physics and constants. 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of all universes are probably dead universes. There also might be a 90% chance this universe ends tomorrow. According to Alan Guth, according to inflation, our universe might be a pocket in a larger universe. The real universe is about the size of our star compared to the rest of the universe.

As for the computer program, there are some computer models of the universe that show the filaments of galaxies just like our universe. All it would take in a computer with a lot more details, a lot more nodes. When you get down to quarks and lower things start to get pixelated.

Life might be living on the outside of the space station. Also, a tardigrad is capable of living in the vacuum of space. IMHO, what science will find in the next 50 years is that the earth was seeded by space just like carbon, potassium, oxygen, ... Thus we might all be aliens. Life began on earth almost when it began, which means life is really easy to start, we got lucky, or we were seeded from space.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/scie...e-Station.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhGRV8cD_tY
55:00 minute.

Deepity

It seems as though you're just equivocating over what intelligent means.

With respect to God, what people mean is that it is a conscious being. There is no evidence that the big bang involved any form of consciousness.

It's plausible that the big bang was the method chosen by a God in order to lead to what we have now and beyond, but you're still at the point of merely suggesting this and not substantiating it in any way.

Either show that the Big Bang has some conscious thought or that there is a conscious designer. Otherwise, you're saying nothing new or interesting.

Interestingly, from what I could find on the web, the whole idea of the big bang was first developed by a Catholic priest. May or may not mean anything.

Monseigneur Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître (17 July 1894 – 20 June 1966) was a Belgian Roman Catholic priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the Université catholique de Louvain. He was the first person to propose the theory of the expansion of the Universe which he called the "the Cosmic Egg exploding at the moment of the creation", now called the Big Bang.

Do you view any natural phenomenon as intelligent?

When you mix chloride and sodium solutions, you get salt. Would you exclaim that's also intelligent? Oh, how it grows!?!

No one said life happened due to 100% chance. There may be a small element of chance (e.g. mutations), but moreover life evolved to adapt to its environment,

Will of itself? Huh?