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Old 01-15-2009, 01:04 PM   #26
Prodigy54321
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

kind of a confusing subject but I don't think there is necessarily a conflict

there is ultimately no actual free will imo, but lets run with the idea

suppose God (or anyone) knows that I am going to eat an apple in 10 minutes

I don't know anything about this prophecy and in 10 minutes I eat an apple

in this case it seems clear that free will has not been interfered with (if we have a problem even in this scenario, then what is below won't help)


the issue, though, (analogous to the issue with biblical prophecy) is...

if God tells me 5 minutes before I eat the apple that I am going to eat the apple, can I freely choose not to eat the apple?

if I do not eat it, then the prophecy is false
if I can't choose not to eat it, then I don't have free will

the answer is, yes, I can freely choose not to eat the apple

it's not that you can't not eat the apple, it's that you won't not eat the apple

what we are not considering is that the prophecy necessarily includes in it the fact that God tells me that I am going to eat an apple in 5 minutes and for some reason actually do eat the apple...

in fact, it is not even necessarily true that I would have eaten the apple if God had NOT told me that I was going to eat it

God telling me that I would eat it is part of the prophecy

it's like in Oedipus Rex...it was actually the actions taken by his parents, after hearing the prophecy that Oedipus would kill his father and marry his mother that actually led to him killing his father and marrying his mother.
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Old 01-15-2009, 02:09 PM   #27
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

So am I allowed to use figurative speech to try to explain my view here, one that may even be logically indescribable? I already did a lot of that in SMP, I guess.

God's will is like a streaming river. Humans are the swimmers. Some may choose to stop keeping afloat, drown, and let the current take them. Some may try to swim from bank to bank. Some may try to swim against the current. Humans are at will in their environment. They can choose freely within their confines.

But their environment and bounds are in the end (and beginning) willed by God. We have free will, because God free willed it. But Free Willy and it's suddenly indecent exposure in the eyes of God.
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Old 01-15-2009, 09:23 PM   #28
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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What's to explain? It means what it says and you seem to understand it reasonably well already.
Someone needs to explain whether or not humans have freewill.

This passage is clear that we do not -- while other Biblical passages clearly show that we do.
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Old 01-15-2009, 09:36 PM   #29
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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Someone needs to explain whether or not humans have freewill.

This passage is clear that we do not -- while other Biblical passages clearly show that we do.
Which Biblical passages?

I suspect the problem here is incompatibilism, but I'd like to see what you have in mind first.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:34 PM   #30
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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Which Biblical passages?
I'll get them for you, but while I do, would you agree that Romans 9 is crystal clear? We have no freewill?

Paul even answers the very question I'm asking in vs 19 and 20! And his answer is, "who the **** are you to question God?"

Right?
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:48 PM   #31
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

your free will is in your choice. if God has picked you to do his work you cannot choose to not do it. however, i can't recall a story in the bible when God has chosen someone to do his work that didn't already believe in him.
Freewill is the exact reason why Israel was exiled from the holy land. they were given laws but chose not to follow them. in the new covenant the Jews and the rest of the world are given another choice. believe in the Christ and be saved, or don't. if you had no freewill, we would all go to Heaven. why would God not want that if we didn't have freewill. the only prophecy that remains is the apocalypse. the other prophecies that were made were to tell of the coming of the messiah, reason being because the Jews broke the 1st covenant. the macro-perspective indicates that God wants a relationship with us, but he wants us to choose him. not follow him because it was preprogrammed that we should.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:51 PM   #32
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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God wants a relationship with us, but he wants us to choose him. not follow him because it was preprogrammed that we should.
In other words, Paul is full of **** in Romans 9, right?
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:53 PM   #33
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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I'll get them for you, but while I do, would you agree that Romans 9 is crystal clear? We have no freewill?

Paul even answers the very question I'm asking in vs 19 and 20! And his answer is, "who the **** are you to question God?"

Right?
Read post #24. Look up what Calvinism is.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:55 PM   #34
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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Read post #24. Look up what Calvinism is.
I was born and raised a Calvinist.

Try harder.
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Old 01-15-2009, 10:58 PM   #35
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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In other words, Paul is full of **** in Romans 9, right?
Paul was chosen to spread a message. Is any man perfect?
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:09 PM   #36
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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Paul was chosen to spread a message. Is any man perfect?
Do you believe the Bible is the perfect, inerrant Word of God? If you don't, then we are on the same page. If you do, then we have much more to discuss.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:17 PM   #37
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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Do you believe the Bible is the perfect, inerrant Word of God? If you don't, then we are on the same page. If you do, then we have much more to discuss.
no, what is written in the bible is not perfect. many inconsistencies. its the message that is perfect.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:35 PM   #38
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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Which Biblical passages?
Each one of the following passages demands an act on the part of the believer (we can go back to the original Greek, if you'd like).

Does God FORCE us to believe?



Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 8:12
Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the utterance from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

1 Timothy 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.



Good luck with Calvinism.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:42 PM   #39
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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no, what is written in the bible is not perfect. many inconsistencies. its the message that is perfect.
What is that message?
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:45 PM   #40
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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What is that message?
are you requesting that i sum up 66 books of the bible in a few short sentences on a forum.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:48 PM   #41
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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are you requesting that i sum up 66 books of the bible in a few short sentences on a forum.
How about a few short paragraphs?
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:51 PM   #42
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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How about a few short paragraphs?
not possible, i would leave many things out. to understand the entire message you would have to start on page 1 and read every letter until the very end. alpha and omega my friend.
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Old 01-15-2009, 11:57 PM   #43
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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not possible, i would leave many things out. to understand the entire message you would have to start on page 1 and read every letter until the very end. alpha and omega my friend.
I've done that at least 6 times.

Tell me something I don't know.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:18 AM   #44
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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Originally Posted by RoundGuy View Post
Each one of the following passages demands an act on the part of the believer (we can go back to the original Greek, if you'd like).

Does God FORCE us to believe?



Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 8:12
Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the utterance from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Acts 16:31
They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.

Acts 10:43
All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

1 Timothy 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.



Good luck with Calvinism.
If you were born and raised a Calvinist, you should already know the answer.

You've subtly shifted the topic. We were talking about (libertarian) free will, that human volitional acts are not caused by any prior state. You have quoted several verses showing that salvation is dependent on the volitional act of trusting Jesus for salvation, apparently as an attack on unconditional election. But while unconditional election and the denial of libertarian free will are connected in Calvinist theology, they are not equivalent. One could imagine an election that corresponds to the common misunderstanding of Calvinism, that some are elected to salvation whether or not they ever repent or have faith, while the non-elect are reprobated even if they do repent. But Calvinism holds that humans, left to themselves, would never repent and never believe in Jesus; only God's intervention in a person's life will change that, and He has always known which people He would give saving faith. So yes, in a sense He does force people to believe, although the elect do not in fact believe unwillingly (which would be a contradiction in terms), because the will reflects the desires, and it is those which God changes.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:33 AM   #45
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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I've done that at least 6 times.

Tell me something I don't know.
well what is your question? and is it even possible for me to answer it?
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:37 AM   #46
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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If you were born and raised a Calvinist, you should already know the answer.
I was born and raised a Calivinist, which I why I know enough to catagoricaly reject your answer.

Quote:
You've subtly shifted the topic.
I've done no such thing. I quoted Romans 9, which indisputably shows that Paul claims we have no freewill, at all.

I then quoted numerous passages which show that salvation is totally dependent on OUR CHOICE. Total freewill.

I can quote dozens more, if you'd like. And the original Greek will bear me out, good luck trying to dispute it.

Quote:
One could imagine an election that corresponds to the common misunderstanding of Calvinism, that some are elected to salvation whether or not they ever repent or have faith, while the non-elect are reprobated even if they do repent.
Dude, this IS Calvinism, and it IS Romans 9. It is what it is, don't try to re-write Calvinism after 400 years.

Quote:
He has always known which people He would give saving faith. So yes, in a sense He does force people to believe,
I'm now convinced you have no clue what true Calvinism is. But, if what you just said above is true, then you've proven my point. You do not believe humans have any freewill whatsoever.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:39 AM   #47
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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well what is your question? and is it even possible for me to answer it?
What is the "true message" of the Bible, even though you admit the the Bible isn't necessarily "true"?
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:47 AM   #48
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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What is the "true message" of the Bible, even though you admit the the Bible isn't necessarily "true"?
i never put i that way. what i said was that the message is perfect. i didn't say the bible isn't true. what i said is that there are inconsitencies in the texts because of the different authors, but the message is perfect. i guess you could say the message is the epiphany you receive when you realize that there is a God and there is a Jesus. all of these things and more.
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Old 01-16-2009, 12:49 AM   #49
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

a simple test of freewill.

Do you think you have a choice to believe or not believe in God?
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Old 01-16-2009, 01:42 AM   #50
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Re: Biblical Prophecies + Human Free Will = Does Not Compute

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I was born and raised a Calivinist, which I why I know enough to catagoricaly reject your answer.
I don't believe you do. You seem to be using your family background as a substitute for any more factually informed consideration.

Quote:
I've done no such thing. I quoted Romans 9, which indisputably shows that Paul claims we have no freewill, at all.

I then quoted numerous passages which show that salvation is totally dependent on OUR CHOICE. Total freewill.

I can quote dozens more, if you'd like. And the original Greek will bear me out, good luck trying to dispute it.
The passages you quoted showed no such thing. They showed that salvation is based on believing in Jesus -- you're the one who automatically inserts the notion of "our choice" or "total freewill" into every mention of belief. But Paul doesn't. He wrote several of the verses you quoted and, as you point out, did not believe in libertarian free will. If we have no libertarian free will, it follows that we have no libertarian free will as to whether we will believe. Or more generally, "do x and y will happen" says nothing about whether or not we can freely choose x.

I wrote: "One could imagine an election that corresponds to the common misunderstanding of Calvinism, that some are elected to salvation whether or not they ever repent or have faith, while the non-elect are reprobated even if they do repent."

You replied:

Quote:
Dude, this IS Calvinism, and it IS Romans 9. It is what it is, don't try to re-write Calvinism after 400 years.
Can Calvin rewrite Calvinism? From the Institutes: "Opposing God to flesh and blood, he (John, in John 1:13) declares it to be a supernatural gift, that those who would otherwise remain in unbelief, receive Christ by faith."

How about the Synod of Dordt? "Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects."

As a good Reformed Baptist, I'll end with Spurgeon: "No man is ever taken to heaven against his will, though I do not believe any man ever went there of his own free will till God’s sovereign grace enlightened him and made him willing."

The elect do repent and believe, and that's why they go to Heaven. Calvinism has always taught that.
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