Open Side Menu Go to the Top
Register
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science)

03-26-2010 , 07:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929
Infinite Greed's experience with theists irl mirrors mine. Their confidence that their viewpoint is right always seems unjustifiably high. This phenomenon always reminds me of this study.
OOT outsmarts itself
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-26-2010 , 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilSteve
Ha! A+ thread.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-26-2010 , 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929
Infinite Greed's experience with theists irl mirrors mine. Their confidence that their viewpoint is right always seems unjustifiably high. This phenomenon always reminds me of this study.

Also, if IG lives in America you can assume he knows many theists. This assumption may be wrong but it's an excellent bet.
Now compare that with atheists. Absolutely no difference.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-26-2010 , 11:27 PM
Because atheists always claim to know that absolutely no god exists, right?
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-26-2010 , 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
Now compare that with atheists. Absolutely no difference.
it's not even close.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-26-2010 , 11:46 PM
I think it is an interesting observation, but the OP's typical fanboy reaction is obscuring the point. This seems to imply that people thinking about God do not think about an "Other" in the sense that they do when they think about another person. That makes sense. If I am praying and contemplating a moral issue, I am searching within myself for inspiration and guidance. I do not think about it in the same way that I would if I was trying to guess what someone else's opinion is on the same issue.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-26-2010 , 11:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929
Infinite Greed's experience with theists irl mirrors mine. Their confidence that their viewpoint is right always seems unjustifiably high. This phenomenon always reminds me of this study.

Also, if IG lives in America you can assume he knows many theists. This assumption may be wrong but it's an excellent bet.
“ The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt. ”

— Bertrand Russell

LOL awesome quote from that link
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLK
I think it is an interesting observation, but the OP's typical fanboy reaction is obscuring the point. This seems to imply that people thinking about God do not think about an "Other" in the sense that they do when they think about another person. That makes sense. If I am praying and contemplating a moral issue, I am searching within myself for inspiration and guidance. I do not think about it in the same way that I would if I was trying to guess what someone else's opinion is on the same issue.
That's an excellent point, and I will agree. Have you or other people you know have or have had experiences with god in which you interact with or think about god in a similar fashion as you would another person?
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 12:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douper
That's an excellent point, and I will agree. Have you or other people you know have or have had experiences with god in which you interact with or think about god in a similar fashion as you would another person?
I certainly cannot speak for anyone else. For my part, I would say "No", at least not as an adult. Maybe when I was young.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 01:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLK
I think it is an interesting observation, but the OP's typical fanboy reaction is obscuring the point. This seems to implythat people thinking about God do not think about an "Other" in the sense that they do when they think about another person. That makes sense. If I am praying and contemplating a moral issue, I am searching within myself for inspiration and guidance. I do not think about it in the same way that I would if I was trying to guess what someone else's opinion is on the same issue.
..... yep. That's rather the point.
The neuroscience is always interesting but to 'discover' a theists views of god's beliefs fulfill their own is old news and rather obvious when dealing with them. It's not a "whoda thunk" revelation.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rizeagainst
http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...74106.abstract

Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other people's beliefs


Abstract

Wow, theists just got dominated

George Bernard Shaw
"No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means."
Not that I'd necessarily give credence to the study without knowing more about it, but for its conclusions I will say that most people who believe in a god certainly DO reason egocentrically, just as those who deny God reason egocentrically (but in their worldview, it's okay). Most people who say they believe the Bible have never read it, just as most who make fun of and deny the Bible have never studied it. In either case, the Bible is made a caricature--the theist using it to bend to his personal moral inclinations (such as Obama saying he's a Christian and then explaining away the Bible's message on homosexuality as "obscure passages" since homosexuality is "in" in America, or the atheist saying the Bible is a crazy conglomeration of writing by crazy men--both naively dismissing the actual message and truth of the Scriptures).

For an atheist to condemn the theist in the way the OP did, I would say for the most part their condemnation is just, and the Protestant Reformation would join you in your condemnation, as this "egocentric" practice was the reason for the rebellion. Being a child of the spirit of the Reformation, I join you. However, if you study true Protestantism, you'll find that there IS an absolute, clear message of truth in the Bible, it IS knowable and agreed upon by men, it IS absolute, universal, and not subject to "egocentricism" (apart from man's sinful temptation to leave the message of truth and pervert it for his purposes). The Westminster Confession of Faith and the Reformed tradition show an amazing theological unity in the vast majority of moral matters, certainly all major moral situations. In the entire Reformed tradition-the conservative, Bible-believing tradition--I dare say there's not one significant issue with which I'd disagree from my own studying of the Bible. From issues like sex outside of marriage to homosexuality to divorce, lying, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the cross, the gospel, heaven, hell, etc., the Bible actually has a miraculous theological unity despite having over 40 authors over a 1,500 year span. Genesis presents the nature of man the same way Job does, and Romans and Paul's writings, and Revelation. Genesis predicts Christ's life and purpose, we see more predictions in Isaiah and the Psalms, seemingly randomly spread out, and then we see the fruition in history. God's character is the same from Genesis to Revelation. If you actually study the Bible yourself-take a couple years full time to study it objectively, it certainly offers a clear, unifying view of God, man, life and morality. And it's not close. The problem is that the % of people who call themselves Christians and who actually seek out to understand what the Bible says versus the % that just make up what they want to believe or listen to random pastors is probably under 1%, therefore atheists (haters gonna hate etc.) make faulty conclusions based on the overwhelming % of people who don't really know what they're talking about.

I say all that to say this--"Theism" is not subjective, egocentric, etc. by nature. Those who claim the Bible can, if they are willing, resolve to understand the unity and coherence of the Bible, because it's there; it exists--that is its nature. Just because so-claimed followers most often butcher what the Bible says doesn't mean the Bible isn't clear in what it teaches. It's a non sequitur logically to say so. Therefore all the OP proves, assuming the study is accurate, is that people tend to manipulate things for their own purpose--it shouldn't take a major study to figure this out .
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 07:16 AM
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=101617951
Quote:
The human brain, it appears, responds to God as if he were just another person, according to a team at the National Institutes of Health.

A study of 40 people — some religious, some nonreligious — found that phrases such as "I believe God is with me throughout the day and watches over me" lit up the same areas of the brain we use to decipher the emotions and intentions of other people.

"There was no difference," says Jordan Grafman, who runs the cognitive neuroscience section at the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke.

Grafman says the finding, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, shows that there is no special circuitry in the brain that deals with religious belief. It also suggests that religion developed as the human brain evolved its capacity for complex social interactions.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douper
Another interesting story, but with a different spin. I wonder how much the result of the test is a function of how one poses the questions?
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
Then you don't know many theists. You will see theist here all of the time hold beliefs very tentatively.
define "all the time"...
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
Now compare that with atheists. Absolutely no difference.
My sample size of atheist encounters irl is pretty miniscule (5).

1) An ex girlfriend from China who had a bachelors degree in physics (The top in her class in quantum physics) and a masters degree in engineering. She was highly intelligent. The only thing she was overly confident on that I can recall was that Tiger Woods was an ******* for cheating on his wife.

2-3) A couple I met at a Christmas party. They were both getting their PhD in biophysics at the University of Michigan. Interesting to note, they were also both bisexual swingers, who didn't believe in marriage, and they planned on having kids down the road and spending the rest of their lives together. They've been together for 4 years. They were both brilliant people. No signs of unjustifiable confidence, but I only hung out with them twice.

4-5) My two best friends. I consider them both highly intelligent people (Biased? Perhaps) Both show a great amount of intellectual humility when it comes to anything they think they know and when they are shown to be wrong about something they accept it graciously.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rizeagainst
If they were attributing the beliefs to god, the parts of the brain where they explicitly attribute things to others should have been used. Instead, the parts of the brain that reference their own thoughts was used. This shows theists project their own preconceived beliefs onto god.
Very interesting stuff!
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RLK
Another interesting story, but with a different spin. I wonder how much the result of the test is a function of how one poses the questions?
Hmmm, hard to tell if this study is showing the opposite. It may be that they were just focussing on different parts on the brain lighting up. But this does put a bit of a question on the other study. Wonder if anyone who knows what they are talking about has correlated the two.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote
03-27-2010 , 02:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arouet
Hmmm, hard to tell if this study is showing the opposite. It may be that they were just focussing on different parts on the brain lighting up. But this does put a bit of a question on the other study. Wonder if anyone who knows what they are talking about has correlated the two.
From this distance it seems they are rather different aspects they are testing for.
"Two other studies directly manipulated people's own beliefs and found that inferences about God's beliefs tracked their own beliefs. Study participants were asked, for example, to write and deliver a speech that supported or opposed the death penalty in front of a video camera. Their beliefs were surveyed both before and after the speech."

After reading the speech my belief on the death penalty may have changed and what I believe god thinks about the death penalty will have changed with it. My belief about what my cousin george believes about the death penalty has not changed.
Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are egocentric (science) Quote

      
m