You know society has this funny little saying it goes:

"You are what you eat."

In fact I take that to mean that you are what you identify with. Isn't that what little children do when they identifiy with fireman and say they want to be a fireman when they grow up or a little boy identifies with a famous baseball player through hero worship and wants to be like him. Doesn't he intend to grow into him?

In 1 John 2 it says:

Christ Helps Us

My children, I am writing this so that you won't sin. But if you do sin, Jesus Christ always does the right thing, and he will speak to the Father for us. Christ is the sacrifice that takes away our sins and the sins of all the world's people.

When we obey God, we are sure that we know him. But if we claim to know him and don't obey him, we are lying and the truth isn't in our hearts. We truly love God only when we obey him as we should, and then we know that we belong to him. If we say we are his, we must follow the example of Christ's. (Contemporary English Version)

Jung's typology has about as much to do with contemporary psychology as the Ancient Greek concept of the four bodily humors has to do with modern medicine.

It makes a point though and allows you to start to consider things and your position in life relative to the world by contrasting yourself with it.

Sometimes the individual is the last person to understand himself.

I trust God to fix me rather than human psychology or psychiatrists because psychiatrists themselves are flawed.

Sigmund Freud the Father of Psychology is a pretty messed up character himself. If you research into his background he was the victim of his father's abuse.

So you've got to wonder how accurate Freud was and did any of that inaccuracy come from his own internal damage. Freud's theories were just a starting point for thinking about human nature.

I believe God's statements though are from the end point of human nature. He knows more about how to fix us permanently then anyone in the world...more than Jung, Freud, Maslow, etc.

I know this personally. I was able to overcome negative thinking just by reading the bible and putting it into practice so the bible did prove itself to me...I just had to put it into action.

Note: if in explaining this concept I come down too hard on psychiatry I don't mean to...psychatry is a very helpful profession...it's just it tends to undermine people's ability to see God's work in human nature...

Psychology's moved a bit past theorists like Freud and Jung; even then, people like Wilhelm Wundt and William James probably have better claims to being the father of psychology.

The weaknesses of Freud's theories is that they weren't very well grounded in empirical reality, and the same can be said of Jung. Personality tests developed from Jung's theories have relatively poor psychometric properties - they lack good reliability (the ability to get the same, or similar, results with repeated measurements) and validity (the ability to measure well-defined psychological constructs).

Now, maybe from a biblical point of view it's not important for concepts to be backed up by scientific and statistical evidence, but when you're talking psychology, it definitely is. And Jung's typology, despite its extraordinary popularity, is not well-supported by current research.

But with your last few statements, you seem to be disowning the use of personality tests to support your views anyway...

I'm glad reading the bible was an effective tool for you, but you have to admit that this would not work for everybody, especially not for non-Christians. In fact, if you consider that Muslims and Hindus probably also get therapeutic benefits from reading their respective holy texts, you may wonder if that benefit actually derives from a Christian divine source, or indeed any divine source at all (I know which interpretation I'd choose).

Well imo the world is always at spiritual warfare. It's a huge appearance vs. reality war game.

God usually busts through to his believers in bits and pieces of personal revelation but the more pieces he gives you the more you can piece together how he operates in the world.

For example the image of kneeling. Kneeling puts one into a literal position of humility where you can pray. Prayer is where God really teachs one humility.

But God tells Abraham to look up. Prayer starts with Jesus Christ kneeling in humility where he is knighted by the Father and ends with the believer standing up and looking at God as he really is. Of course we go through a lot of heart attitudes like pledging our undying love to the King....that's only natural...a King has to know who's really loyal before he can give anyone an office to perform...

If you read Virkler's book 4 Keys to Hearing God's Voice or Dr. Richard Booker's "Celebrating Jesus in the Biblical Feasts" or read Dr. Stephen E. Jones summary on the laver you will see that God works through pictorial imagery (visualization) in the mind's eye.

He is raising people up his way in this world. It's just people have trouble coming out of the spiritual blindness and deafness and need to hyper focus on his Word to figure out what he is doing in his believer's lives. But what he is doing is personal training...custom fitting the individual to fulfill God's purposes...

What does this mean?

According to societal pressure. If humans evolved different, and kneeling was what the kings did to their subordinates, kneeling would be a position of power and pride

You've started ...'ing again; I know this is just how I read it, but it really makes me read you as confused. It is up to you, it is just the perspective i get.

You can't compare a King to God, because God can apparently read our souls; so we do not need to show our humility or loyalty because he should know it.

So God is training us to be his tools, and has the power to make us who we are, and what decisions we make; but we have free will? God gave us a choice, but made it so easy for you the INFJ but not me the ENFJ.
Do you see anything wrong there? If not, why not?

Please do not take this as debating; i'm trying to understand, and if you approach it like a debate, you will not be honest.

Oh and I was under God's repair work a long time before I came out as a Christian so any comparison between your life and mine is only partially accurate. We learn some things from each other but we don't learn everything from each other. Life, the Word of God and the Holy Spirit are all counselors and teachers.

Once again, you are crediting your holy book/religion/deity with an experience for which there is absolutely ZERO empirical evidence. Furthermore, you can demonstrate no claim beyond what is common to almost ALL religion. For example, one of my close friends and work colleagues has testified many times that Scientology has cured him of crippling anxiety. He experienced panic attacks so severe, he couldn't drive his car and was becoming more and more home-bound. After a week of 'counseling' within the Church of Scientology, he was cured. Scientology has regularly produced testimonies of this sort, ime, and I think we all pretty much agree to the general quackery surrounding this 'religion'.

Nice dodge.


That doesn't respond in any way. You used kneeling as an example of the submission in prayer; but kneeling is only submission because of society. Kneeling is societal not evolutionary.

You can't compare a King to God, because God can apparently read our souls; so we do not need to show our humility or loyalty because he should know it.(this is me btw

You inspire people to action by example and you can only live life abundantly by living it.[/QUOTE]

yeah that responds to the point in no way. Read the dialogue.

Once again you ignored the main point; we are his tools which he "straightens out" but we supposedly still have free will?

Also; this has been hammered to death but you obvs find "faith" easier; and this is meant to be fair?

Why don't you try simplifying things by trust.

Just trust God and take him at his Word.

Christians are aiming for oneness with God's Will....that is the aim of the Lord's Prayer.

How are you going to achieve oneness with the LORD if you keep raising objections to him.

Were you ever in a relationship with someone that raised an objection all the time. There is no relationship. None.

That's why the Hebrews were in the Desert of Sin for 40 years. They were looking for faults. If you look for faults you will find them in people they abound in people. God can require obedient trust because he is faultless.

Now I may be misunderstanding your question but if you research the word shama it means both to hear and to obey. Faith is both hearing and obeying. Be careful with your questions because the human heart is deceptive and can be led into error.

yeah that responds to the point in no way. Read the dialogue.



Once again you ignored the main point; we are his tools which he "straightens out" but we supposedly still have free will?

Google biblegateway and read 1 John in the Contemporary English Version edition. It's only about 4 pages of reading. Take note of chapter 3 in particular. I think it answers your question.

Oh and have patience with my answers. This is a hard format with someone with a different worldview to get their ideas across in.

Also; this has been hammered to death but you obvs find "faith" easier; and this is meant to be fair?


Easier than what? To me faith is the only way to live life. It is true life. It is the examined life that Socrates spoke about pursuing. It's just that we can't fly life solo...we need God's help every moment of every day.
[/QUOTE]


Btw its very good of you LeBoeuf that you only want straight answers. When people attempt to force you into question answer mode only you usually don't get the best and straightest answers from the text and the experience. Instead you get a detour that doesn't resolve the big questions. That's why I eschew debate. People think they are learning from other people's questions...well you can learn their faults, too. We don't learn just the good things from people...we learn the bad things, too.

When I trust people, as I do, I do it because I have reason to.

Any experience of anything I've had involving God, are reading a contradictatory and illogical Bible, and experiences of some higher power which I have no reason aren't a different God, or some deep desire from me for their to be something else. It might even be jsut a sense of overwhelming good.

You say I should trust God; but your "God" has given me no reason to. What reasons has he given you to trust?

My friends give me reason to trust them because they have shown genuine selflessness in the past; and love towards me, which is definitely rooted in them, and is definitely a show I can trust they will have my back. I can trust; I have no reason to trust God exists, so I have no reason to trust his word.


Your approaching this as a blind believer. God does not want blind believers, as described by you and many others, he wants engaging believers. To engage you need to analyse. Upon analysis he makes no sense.

I have never been in a relationship when the other person gave me cause to raise objection. So you are right; with constant objection there is no relationship. But you fail to see that a good relationship does not call for objection. Sometimes it is the fault of the objector; say an irrational spouse whos lack of trust in her husband is irrational. But frequently it is because the other being in the relationship is acting in a questionable matter.

I'm not looking for faults; they are obvious.

To question is necessary to engage. Blind obedience is bad. Obedience whilst engaging is good. The soldiers we desire are not the one's who follow the orders of their commanders blindly, but the ones who understand the orders. When you understand the orders, you enact the orders with the correct spirit and can adapt and change with situations.


Not really. Once again, we are his tools which he "straightens out" but we supposedly still have free will?
John talks about having faith because Jesus gave them reason to; it talks about someone who is obviously the truth by purely experiencing him; at least thats how i read it. This is different to experiencing some higher power. People don't experience "Jesus" and the christian faith; if they did their would be examples of the christian faith in places where it was never taught. But the passage does not answer the question; if you think it does, where and why?




I am living life without specific faith; and am extremely happy.
You said faith is a true life; faith is a jump without logic and rationality and therefore is, by definition, not a true life. It is an unexamined life as you have to accept what is seemingly contradictatory.

Oooh long post...but I'm having a spiritual moment today from all the spiritual music I've been listening to today...spiritual music has a life giving almost orgasmic quality to it...New spiritual life comes from music...I feel sure of it...

And this song illustrates how Christianity goes beyond religion by Lincoln Brewster. It's called The Power of Your name:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HY-_f6RA8U

You are the queen of tangents

Yeah, but I'm an almost fully broken Queen though. Pride has been nothing but a curse to me.

I hafta take a break...I will read your so loooooooooooong post later.

Dude...

Seems like it's pretty obvious that they do contradict. If you worded it badly, you have completely mangled the meaning, because as written it's a pure contradiction (as in, there is no possible interpretation that is non-contradictory).

If she didn't hold non-believers such as yourself in such contempt, she might admit that she was wrong.

....

SEMIGRUNCHING

Pascal's Wager, ugh. No offense, but a gambit is no way to find spirituality. As Voltaire said, its indecent and childish.

Use your ability to reason, discerning intelligence, and compassion - these will get you much further.

Anyways, it doesn't explain why bet on Christianity - a person could just as easily shove all in on any other religion or brand of christianity.

Also, why doesn't the wager work in reverse?

Not in heads up.

Well well well. So your faith is not rooted in evidence, logic or reason, but in Fear.

I didn't say anything about my roots.

I made an analogy.

But my root is the love of God because he first loved me.

It's merely an observation to say belief is the safer position.

Why do you think the Bible is correct? Do you think human hands and ear can correctly translate the "word of God" without foul ups?