Huh? I don't recall ever thinking anyone but Satan was Satan.

I don't know what generates their experience. Does every Mormon receive that sensation?

But I don't know enough about Mormons to make definitive statements about them for others but for myself their history of polygamy is a red flag. Polygamy stumbled King Solomon. It is not a way of life approved by God imo.

Mainly though I believe Paul when he says there is only one Gospel. The Koran was delivered by angels but Paul said there is only one Gospel and it was not of human origin but that he got it from Jesus and that no angels could deliver another. I also believe Paul is accurate in his description of the Christian experience. I think many believers/disciples have experienced things similar to what Paul experienced in the Book of Acts.

What has changed in the world is most likely Christian theology with the advent of Arminianism. It has atttibuted a greater role to free will than I think was the historic norm. Arminianism seems to have inverted the historical position on this. Of course free will plays a role but I don't believe its as dominant as people in the more Wesleyan side of the Christian house attribute. Though the exact proportion of divine/human will in the equation is impossible to determine which is revealed if you study different major Christian groups doctrinal statements of belief. If you check people like George Fox and Martin Luther they were not considering free will as a prime mover. With the social climate in Europe changing towards the Enlightenment Era something occurred and suddenly people are making free will a bigger player than it had been historically. You can check Luther and Erasmus debating this question. Luther tears Erasmus up on this question. I believe I have a link summarizing their debate posted in The Faith in Action thread.

Every Mormon I've talked to has. And they all push you to pray to God and ask if the Book of Mormon is true. This is when the 'burning in the bosom' occurs. Every Mormon I've ever met has been very confident about this. One of my best friends is a Mormon.

This is fair.

This is also fair. Thank you.

How do you feel your personal experience plays into your faith? Is it possible to even consider it may not be authentic, based on similar experiences felt by those who believe in other faiths?

My faith expanded greatly once I tried to represent it. Once I became active it grew. I was passive before because I didn't think I knew enough to take on non-believers and I wasn't sure if God really wanted me too. I felt unsure of my qualification to discuss religion. But once I started discussing it I delved into it much more accutely and I really pondered things much more deeply. I had an experience a number of years ago where I touched the cross hanging in my car on a misty day then got an auto accident where the car did a 180 degree spin. I felt God saved me from death. Recently I helped a relative get baptized and they had an auto accident about 2 weeks ago and the car did a 180 degree spin. Both of us walked away without injuries. That's why I felt it was a devil's attack. Most people would get scared after that but I didn't. I think I can stand on God's Word. The Psalms are loaded with verses that believers are protected and the lion of God is a stronger lion than Satan even if he does go around roaring.

I have had many experiences since posting in this forum. I had the lighthouse experience, the rainbow experience and several others.

Do you think it's possible for cars to do 180 degree spins based on the laws of phsyics alone, or does this only happen through satanic intervention?

Yes they can do it based on physics.

But in the recent accident the person driving was turning the wheel to the right and they felt the wheel suddenly jerk out of their hand and go to the left. Maintenance and fluid had been done on the steering recently before the accident so its unlikely the problem was mechanical.

Haven't scientists tried to explain that morality has its roots in animal nature?

I'm going to go back and re-read your posts. There are too many people interjecting itt and it has set me behind. Thanks in advance for your patience.

Where did I claim to know everything? Christianity is far too massive a topic to know everything. But the posters keep changing on here. I'm like the old woman in the shoe...I have so many posters wanting to exchange posts with me I don't know what to do...

But I do have a couple of years of researching Christian topics under my belt. I've run tons of topics and facts in threads on here over the past few years and mostly encountered trolling and agitation. I have made a lot of what I consider to be factual discoveries about Christianity in addition to my beliefs and experiences it's just nobody wants to hear about them.


I've also ran 2 theist only threads hoping to have information the forum could easily access. One of the threads was intentionally disrupted: the Biblical Archaeology thread. Take a look at it sometime...It's a type of evidentiary thread but some posters couldn't leave it alone. It was trolled by people who must not have seen it as valuable thread for people to examine archaeological claims. It was important to certain posters to disrupt it. I think a lot of people on here don't respect the individual's right to examine and decide things for themselves. They just decide to make unilateral decisions for the group on here.

Sounds a lot like church to me.

Maybe both sides would be better off if they just left the other alone (when it comes to theist-only, atheist-only threads).

Yep, definitely Satan.

Grunching-
That doesn't prove souls.
Also not specifically; but it is a show of your understanding of science that you can infer from some talk of morality coming from animal nature in some unspecified study that might have been misinterpreted by the media (as in all popular media representations of scientific discovery) that animals have souls.

You can't appeal to science without knowing what its on about

I could be wrong.

But about 6 months ago I was trying to pick a church to go to when this person I knew only slightly asked me to come to theirs. She said she felt something had laid it on her spirit strongly to invite me. So I knew the Spirit of God was working through her providing me with guidance. It turned out the Church she invited me to is a rather good one. I detect the spirit working through the Pastor...if you were there you would be able to see what I mean I could point it out to you in action but I'm sure from the vantage point of this forum where you can't observe him you'd dismiss it so I'll leave it at that....

A couple of quotes for you to ponder Big Perm since you are actually pondering the nature of experience to faith. I was in the bookstore and looking through books yesterday and came across these Oswald Chamber quotes in Wiersbe's book 50 Great Men.

Chambers wrote in his famous book "My Utmost for His Highest":

"Never make a principle of your own experience; let God be as original with other people as He is with you."

Another quote I liked because it is deep is:

"The snare in Christian work is to rejoice in successful service, to rejoice in the fact that God has used you...If you make usefulness the test, then Jesus Christ was the greatest failure that ever lived. The lodestar of the Saint is God Himself not estimated usefulness. It is the work that God does through us that counts, not what we do for Him."

This is part of the point I'm trying to make to you. This statement cannot be anything but self-contradicting unless it's expanded beyond the realm of Christendom.

And, to clarify, I'm not pondering the nature of experience to faith. I'm quite comfortable with my own understanding of it.

I don't see a danger in people 'experiencing' God. Whatever that means. But when those experiences are used for justification to validate a particular doctrine/dogma, it's at best illogical, and at worst dangerous.

How does a religious experience validate the Christian Faith is correct, when people world wide have experiences through countless other religions.

How do you know I'm closeminded. I've changed and waffled on several opinions on this board over the years while you're new to the forum and have a stereotype about Christians in your head. NotReady and a lot of posters on here can testify I change my views. I changed from believing in eternal damnation to a universalist on the board so stop assuming things...that is your inflexibility not mine...

Well to me the experiential side is fascinating. I think it shows God working with people and through people particularly with their emotional blocks.

It is very complicated when people become too dogmatic. I think they inadvertently block their spiritual growth and that is why regular bible reading and prayer are so important. God works intimately and particularly with the individual on a case by case basis not just according to His will but according to their needs. God is the Great Psychiatrist...he just never violates the veil of confidentiality revealing everything. You have to be studying circumstances, other people, what other people say and his Word to discover the secrets of what he is doing and to learn to read between the lines. That's when your relationship starts to flourish because then you are really paying attention to him and starting to comply with his plan for your life.

If you read what I quoted you explicitly said things which refused to listen to other opinions.

The thing is you can't see that any other religion could do this.
Also; it barely responds to the point but I get what your trying to say.

There is no reason for you to believe him not to be fictional, or the points to be lies without relying on the belief that you already belief in him. Its eternally circular; and does not provide rationality for your belief.

As an exercise; can you rationally point out your belief process to come to God. The way I see it, from your posts, is something like this-

P1) I have experienced God
P2) The Christian Bible is God's world
P3) Jesus is given as truth etc., in the Christian bible

C) I am Christian

Would you change any of the premises?
If not; P2 is 100% a presumption.

I agree that's it's fascinating. But I'm nowhere near convinced it's God working.

I know you didn't intend it, but this is ironic.

You see a personal God working. I do not. I see nothing in this world which requires a supernatural solution, and see no need for worship of the Christian deity.

It's not about finding 'God's plan' for your life. It's about you finding your own path. People may chose to use 'God' as the motivator, but the end result is the same.

I think after all these years on the forum you should realize by now that pretty much every religion claims to be the one and only truth; That all other religions are deceived.

I'd like you to consider that you posting this kind of thing repeatedly over the years without consideration that this sort of thing has been addressed over and over again is the kind of thing that makes people get so snippy with you. After years of posting it sometimes feels like there's no listening on your end to what other people say, no consideration of points other people make.

People who have different belief systems are asking you, giving you a chance to give them good solid reasons for why your faith is the one. If you respond with answers that are merely assertions and circular reasoning ("Christianity is the truth because Christianity/Jesus/The Bible says it is the truth) then people get irritated because the problem with these declarations have been rebuffed over and over again for years now. THIS is why people get frustrated. Its not that you're a theist. Its that the dialogue with you has advanced little more then it has when you arrived here years ago.

Do you not understand why this isn't compelling? Here's a little test - take whatever reasons you post as what you think is a compelling case for christianity (ex- I have a personal emotional experience that I credit to my god, Christianity says its the truth, Jesus says he's the way, etc.)... substitute Christianity/Jesus/Bible for any other religion/religious leader/religious text. If others can say the same thing about other religions its probably not a compelling argument.

If you say you know your truth is real because you have a personal relationship with God, do you understand that this isn't compelling to anyone else because believers of all faiths say the same thing. I would like to think that you would see why this is problematic and seek other more compelling and UNIQUE elements that would show others why you think your faith is the one.

And please don't get me wrong - I'm not saying that personal revelation and such are meaningful to you, only to understand that when you're listing things that are elements of believers of all religions, they don't show anyone why your faith is different or more likely the truth.

Well theres a surprise

Circular reasoning is flawed reasoning. Do you find this convincing-
1) I just got a C on a paper
2) I'm an A student
3) I don't deserve a C
4) I just got a C on a paper
5) I'm an A student
6) I don't deserve a C
etc.

It is circular. None of it disproves the rest of it. The propositions are in dispute, so you can't use them as evidence in your argument.

Also suggesting you need to be baptized to see God, is saying you need to be forced into faith when you don't believe it to believe.
There is no choice in that, as it is either ignoring your reasoning (which God gave you), and blindly following people you have no reason to.

Failing to see this is failing to reason. Reasoning is not a sin. It is not wrong. God cannot beat reasoning.
Can God create a rock so big he can't move it?
Do you see the contradiction? It is not a problem though; as God cannot beat logical facts as if he did our universe would not function.

so humility is not a trait of an INFJ?

edit: and also, is INFJ an actual thing that is real? or is it like SQ?

I believe she mentioned before that she took an online test.

Here's one if you want to try it yourself:

http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

According to the test, this is what I am:

Your Type is
INTJ
Strength of the preferences %
Introverted Intuitive Thinking Judging
33 38 12 44

It's Jungian psychology.

Everyone has a personality profile.

I just took the test. I'm an ISFJ. Seems like a nifty little nugget of information but I like to think I'm a more complex person than just labeling myself with 4 letters. Also, I can easily see that designation changing depending on my mood and how I feel when clicking a few true/false buttons. So I guess it seems to me like something that I would never dare use to define my character (like IQ).