lol, conceded? This was my stance from day one.

I dismissed them because they had nothing to do with the OP. Your faulty assumption was screwing with you (even though it should not have).

Then GTFO.

This is why I specified Christianity with 'the general idea' - that is, Jesus being in some way special and dying for our sins. I meant not to introduce anything else from specific sects (like the Bible was divinely inspired). It then could be true that the Jesus story is true but that 2k years later there is not enough evidence to justify believing it.

No, it is not the same question in the least. Mine is about whether if Christians were right, what the more likely explanation is. Yours is about whether or not you would like that they were.

Reread the title. This thread is directed at atheists. You have entirely missed every aspect of my OP thus far.

Fair enough, another version of luck but a different one. Regardless, this is what I was trying to avoid when I generalized Christianity.

Most likely the former, because I'm an arrogant douche.

But in all seriousness, I know some theists who claim to have had genuine religious experiences that account for their belief. I can't falsify their claims, but I can't duplicate them, either. I can honestly say I've never had a religious/spiritual experience that would lead me to take seriously the veracity of mainstream religious claims. And then are some alleged "religious experiences" I hear about that make me roll my eyes--Francis Collins' "3 frozen waterfalls" story falls under this category.

But sure, it's possible believers have seen something I've missed. It just makes me wonder what kind of a sick prick God must be to make it so easy for some and impossible for others. I'm sure I'll get a litany of "well, you need to be open to God" or "God has tried, but you weren't listening" platitudes, but I can't take those seriously, either. I've been open to plenty of spiritual experiences, but I always came up short or was able to rationalize the experience later.

Making smaller decisions when evaluating evidence does not equal choosing to believe in God, sorry.

Not enjoying the process is why it would be worse. You also know where you stand with both.

Your initial "I can't think of anything worse was silly. Why try and defend hyperbole?

Yeah i guess determinism would be luck too...

i would say some part luck, but probably mostly "something we missed". I have never met a Christian who did not claim that personal revelation/experience was a major component of their faith. Sure, evidence in the world may be a factor as well, but imo, that evidence is not sufficient otherwise the necessity of faith would be pointless.

as a former Christian, I believed at a time that I had personal experience to believe the Christian God existed. Unfortunately, after years of introspection, I realized those feelings were not genuine, and asked God fervently for Him to reveal Himself to me in the same way that I once *thought* He did. 3 years later, and no answer, and I am where I am today ... mainly basing my beliefs in "God" based on what evidence I have at hand (btw, I am a deist ... so not sure if the OP applies to me)

But after death, if I am standing at the pearly gates and come to the realization that I was wrong, then yes I missed something. Either because God didn't want to show me that "something", or I misinterpreted it out of sheer ignorance. That said, would I then believe that the Christian God exists? Of course! Does that mean I want to spend eternity in heaven? With my close family and friends, probably, but with the likes of Gunth, JD, Splendour, and Pletho? I honestly think I would be happier with annihilation.

Yup

/thread

seriously its 61 posts too long.

[x] Hitchensclone

My religious beliefs are complex and rather distanced from mainstream views of theism or atheism (though as a simplification and short-hand expression, I prefer say that I am an atheist). But I will play along:

If the Christian religion is correct in a literal sense, I would say to God that I did my best to examine myself, my beliefs, my environment and nature to the best of my emotional and cognitive abilities. I would also say that I enjoyed life immensely and that throughout my life I experienced nothing short of joy and a deep feeling of gratefulness. I would thank him for such a wonderful display of complexity, happiness, joy as well as sadness, nostalgia and extraordinary pain. And I would add that I say a deep "Yes" to all of it: Sorrow, friendship, love, pain and life. Then I would proceed further according to what he says. If hell is my share, so be it. No problem.

This is pretty much what I wished all non-Christians felt and said to the Christian-God if we die and He exists.

God bless

Again, this thread has nothing to do with how you would feel if Christianity turned out to be true.

This is where I lose you. If I was created to enjoy my 80 years on earth and then suffer eternity on fire (or whatever the hell hell is), then FFFFF UUUUUU for creating me in the first place.

But why? Maybe we feel differently about eternity and maybe I should clarify my religious instinct a bit more. I have never thought that "eternity" is something that will happen to you after you die. Eternity is being realized at every instant right now, in a very real sense. In this sense, I am already in heaven (or kingdom of God if you are a Christian) that many other people are "waiting" for. Hah, waiting for eternity, what a concept! My whole existence is a whole (a Gestalt if you will) in which eternity is being realized at every moment. That is life. That is the source of my happiness, joy and gratefulness (keep in mind, "gratefulness" is the real God-forming instinct, not "fear" as many religious people wrongly believe so).

Now, if the "God" whose very intelligence and wisdom, by definition, far exceeds mine says to me that my eternity will continue to be realized somewhere else (let's say, Hell), this is no problem for me. I have already lived in Heaven for an eternity (an eternity of moments in a finite life, yes, but nevertheless eternity). And I do not feel the slightest resentment or fear, why would I?


EDIT: Here comes eternity in 8 minutes and 20 seconds, enjoy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91pMQfuZf04

Do you consider that you have "met" me? I have no great revelation or experience. And honestly I don't quite understand what christians even mean by that.

Yep, it was luck.

55 beats AA sometimes.

Go with the flow.

Nice post.

As a Christian, what if YOU were wrong? What would you do if you died, and it turned out that the Judeo-Christian God was false, and that Thor, or Chikiquatal or Allah or Buddha or Jim Jones was right? What would you do? There are a countless amount of possible gods to believe in, what makes you so sure that YOURS is the right one?

Really? I have my doubts. What is this "choice" to believe he talks about? More specifically what is a "choice" in any meaningful sense? Of course in a trivial sense you may claim that you choose chocolate ice-cream over vanilla etc., but does "belief" work in this way? I do not think so. A human life is a totality composed of contingencies, chance encounters and incalculable rises and falls of random events ("luck" in the ancient sense). One believes or one does not believe as a result of the combination of those contingent monstrosities that we simply call life. Any meaningful "choice" is so over-determined by controllable and uncontrollable factors that it always appears to me that it is more than naive to assume that "we" (as subjects) choose anything.

Of course in any metaphysics of hangmen (as Nietzsche would call theistic systems of punishment, heaven, hell etc.), this "choice" and "free will" is lionized and idolized because they create a nice ideology for explaining why the humans are somehow "responsible" for their choices etc. But where are these choices exactly? Closer you look at them, faster they disappear.