Can I ask you, if we accepted for the sake of argument that there are no gods, how would you feel about your knowledge of god? As distinct from your interpretations of the Torah which exists and can therefore be interpreted.

I'm guessing that I'm the 'uninformed and ignorant atheist', which is a bit of a leap on your part since you know next to nothing about me but I think you've misunderstood my point. All I'm saying is that if there is no God, arguing about differences between various versions of god would be ridiculous, don't you agree? I'm not saying that God doesn't exist, I can't know that.

I quoted you MB what do you think I was referring to.

Not received.

So I'm going to expand on this because I think it may serve you to consider what you are actually saying rather than what you think you are saying. Because that's not all you were saying.

In asserting that Doggg would feel exactly the same way as you if he didn't believe you are essentially saying that it's not about your beliefs, these are a logical consequence of not believing these stories. Any failure for you to engage Doggg is a result of his beliefs not the relative weakness of your own arguments. If this was posted by a theist you'd rail against this type of assertion and you'd point out that not all theists think alike, they all have different gods remember.

It's not just another case where religion gets held to a different standard than other topics but that being religious is held to a different standard than being irreligious. You aren't being consistent and you aren't really thinking about what your posts mean instead of what you want them or think them to mean.

Sent it at 5:20 forum time so you should have since the post above was made at 5:36. Let me know if it doesn't show up.

Cheers can you send it again I think I know what happened but it should be fine now.

I think people are hearing 'there is no god' when all I'm trying to do is express how I feel when I hear people arguing about differences in the various versions of the various gods. I'm not drawing any conclusions from it, there is no 'argument' being put forward.

This is on occasion when I'll use the word 'ridiculous' because it is and I'm quite certain that we've all felt what I feel. If you don't like the Star Wars analogy, substitute one of your own. All it has to include is two or more people arguing the toss over details or specifics of something that you don't even believe is real.

I'm definitely not arguing that all atheists feel the way I do, it's an individual response. I wouldn't imagine that it's that uncommon though.

I would feel the same way if I heard two people arguing about some specific interpretation or fact to do with Star Wars BUT to a lesser degree purely because ultimately their disagreement doesn't affect me in the way that religion does.

So yes, to an extent I do hold religion to a 'different standard' because unlike Star Wars, or Yeti, or alien abductions, or Chi based Reiki healing, all of which I consider to also be false beliefs, religion hugely affects my life. Not all false beliefs are created equal.

I don't think you understand my point and I don't think I have the energy to get into a tit for tat. If you are going to make statements about what people would feel if they held different beliefs it may be worth considering what people with (some of) those different beliefs actually feel.

I got your PM and while I understand your position I think you would be better advised to not make accusations about people that you have on ignore and will be unable to engage to clarify or dispute.

It would be really easy to confirm that Aaron in fact has 0 posts containing both Plato and Moses, other than the one from this discussion, and as ridiculous as you find the statement now it was you that made it not Aaron.

If Britain is largely irreligious, to the point that an atheist being elected president of a Christian college would hardly warrant a mention and where politicians are embarrassed to acknowledge God as a part of their decision making process just how hugely does it affect your life.

I'm sorry I can't keep up with your inconsistency and your refusal to accept it.

Again, not what I'm saying, you don't have to have 'different beliefs' to feel what I'm describing, and all I'm attempting to do is describe it. Are you telling me that you have never felt it absurd when you've overheard or in some other way witnessed people arguing over specific details of something that you consider to be completely made up anyway?

For example, how do you feel when you consider the disagreements between Haruspices and Augers on whether or not omens could be accurately foretold from animal entrails or the flights of birds? This was a very serious issue in ancient Rome. You probably don't have strong feelings about it, having no reason to, but would you say that your feelings lean towards considering it absurd in light of the fact that you don't accept either as being 'real'? Imagine that people were suffering and dying over this disagreement today, how would you feel then?

Ok, I think I confused Doggg with Aaron, this originally came from a post Doggg made when he said 'Somebody should have told Moses.' after I suggested that Christianity had piggy backed Morality as a way of being credible in this post.

So, it wasn't Aaron who made the original comment and I can't show that he's ever referred to it since or used the resulting misconception in any attempt to undermine or counter anything I've said, so I retract my comment that Aaron was responsible for anyone thinking that I thought 'Moses stole ideas from Plato' and apologize.

If a senior member of a non-religous organisation admitted to being deeply religious (Tony Blair is a good example), that would be a news story, and it was when it happened. It was considered quite shocking in a way that I seriously doubt that it would if an American politician admitted to being deeply religious. Last time I checked there was only 1 admitted atheist in the entire Congress.

I never said that any story related to religion wouldn't be newsworthy in the UK, only that someone turning out to be atheist wouldn't. Does that clarify it for you? That's not inconsistent.

MB maybe it was the post that both Doggg and I have quoted in the last couple of days. The one you've actually responded to and one that contains references to both Moses and Plato.

You know, this one

At this point I don't know how to continue so I'm not going to.

Fine, I know how to continue so I will.

Earlier ITT Doggg said this:

I was simply pointing out that I NEVER said that. I said that Christianity 'piggy backed' morality for reasons of credibility.

For the record, I wouldn't now assert that 'Christianity claimed to have invented morals by which we should all live'. I would now phrase it something along the lines of 'Christianity claims that their god is the source of all morals' and since the Greeks having discussed morality long before the time of the Moses story isn't inconsistent with that claim, it would be pointless for me to make the first assertion.

/ridiculoussidetrack

So there's no inference to be taken from the post quoted that Moses borrowed those ideas from Plato? In any case it's unlikely given that Moses predates Plato by about a 1000 years.

/respondingtoMB

good luck

So on the one hand, people in the UK are embarrassed to admit that they are deeply religious. On the other hand, there is constant pressure in the UK to be religious ( as stated by you in multiple posts)?

That is the inconsistency that dereds ( and I ) am pointing out.

This is not inconsistent. That there is an effort ongoing to push a Christian agenda doesn't mean that it's working. The CoE can be doing it's level best to create more Christians and the UK still be come a more Secular society, which is exactly what's happening.

For the record, this is not the inconsistency that Dereds was (incorrectly) pointing out... his was wrt me saying that a senior student in a university declaring themselves atheist would not be newsworthy in the UK. He thought I was also saying that a senior politician declaring themselves deeply religious would also not be newsworthy, which it actually would, in our increasingly secular society.

The difference is that the US is strongly religious and the UK is becoming more strongly Secular. So different stories have different impacts and my original statement, that 'only in a really religious country would this even be a news story' is perfectly consistent with everything else I've said.

I never actually said that Moses stole ideas from Plato, which is kinda the little nugget that you all keep glossing over in this mostly pointless exchange which I'm more than happy to see an end to.

Since the bible wasn't collated until many years after the time of Jesus, it's irrelevant when the Moses story is supposed to have happened and that I didn't know that it predated the Greeks since my original assertion was that Christianity was piggybacking ideas of morality that existed long before Christianity existed.

You also don't have a model of human behavior:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=92

But yet you give models of human behavior such as

And make behavioral claims like

You would not be the first poster who simply could not admit to his own intellectual shortcomings. If you want to maintain your delusional state so that you can avoid dealing with the fact that you're wrong on many, many points, there's nothing that anybody in this forum can do to help you.

It's kind of hard not to see you as an unthinking bigot when considering the intellectual value of the posts you make.

This is some deep denial.

Edit: I'm reminded of another statement by MB:

I told him he was wrong then, and he's proving himself to be wrong now.

No I wasn't

Apology accepted.