That to me appears very much to be a point of community rather than an issue of belief.

I wonder what reasons RLK will have for theism when immortality becomes the norm (if it does occur in our lifetime).

Not really. I think a decision to follow the commandments provides a better, more stable mental life. I think they lead you toward a stable existence. The church is very much part of the Christian experience, and I'm not sure you can separate the church from the belief system in any meaningful way. But above all, the Word provides wisdom, a guide to avoid pitfalls and common errors. It's not so much that being a Christian makes you happier, but that being a Christian causes you to more likely sidestep some major life-errors that people commonly make.

It's like two people who buy a complicated piece of machinery, say. One has the manual and the other doesn't. One machine is going to undergo proper upkeep and the other isn't. One is going to last longer than the other, generally. One is probably going to be in much better shape than the other a few years from now.

I also don't find it unreasonable to believe that it is easier to slip into a sustained depression as an atheist than as a Christian. Because as a Christian, you always have the extended family, even if your family is nuts or all dead. And quite honestly, faith is an antidote to despair. So there are all of these factors.

It doesn't seem at all necessary to have religion to have the kind of community support and closeness that you spoke of in that first post, although I do see a local Church as something that would encourage and provide that community spirit much better than atheism that doesn't involve congregation.

Unless I'm missing something your key point seemed to be this:

And you seem to repeat it now

I don't see this purely as a product of Christian belief in and of itself, but a product of people sharing common interest that interact so closely with each other. It's something that practising atheism doesn't achieve so well, but it's not a consequence of the belief.

There's one other thing:

After re-reading the post, the underlined struck out at me. I started to think about the coworkers I had. There was a moral elasticity present, that imo, a Christian just cannot afford to have. They all were willing to compromise their moral character in order to protect themselves and their jobs. And not just one guy, but everyone present.

OriginalPosition recently said that I have a Manichean viewpoint. But understand this-- that once you truly commit to a christian moral code, just about EVERYONE around you starts to appear tainted and morally compromised when viewed in accordance with that particular moral standard.

But it is. Christ established the church. He commanded believers to love one another as brothers and sisters. He stressed this over and over in the gospels.

This would likely be the case for a large range of tightly specified moral standards.

If you are an American, just going by the percentages, id bet most of them considered themslefs Christians. Or at least were believers in God.

Ive know atheists who wouldn't steal a penny and Christians who would steal their mothers rent money (i know they were not True Christians). It really depends on the people.

But were they true Christians?

My pony is slow... but it got there.

None of them would consider themselves practicing Christians, actually. One would claim to be "spiritual, accepting the commonalities of all religions." Another one was an outright atheist. Another a self-professed backslidden Christian. And another backslidden christian, from what I remember. And this was only in my department.

From experience, if you press people, they will identify as Christian or a theist, but admit that they don't practice it. They don't honor the moral code, or try to. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I'm a Christian, BUT..."

Never said they would call themslefs practicing Christians. I said most would consider themslefs Christians.

Not that i haven't met immoral practicing Christians. I cant tell you how many times ive met Christians who go to church regularly on Sunday and sin on Monday.

You can say atheists as a group are in a rudderless boat. But it doesn't make it so. Just like practicing Christainty doesn't make one automatically a more moral person. People vary. You could have a non practicing Christian who is more moral then one who does. Or even, shudder, an atheist who is more moral then a practicing Christian (even by the Christian moral code).


Then there is the reality not all agree on what is moral. Christians would have a harder time treating homosexuals in a moral way according to my moral code. Meaning not calling what they do wrong because doing so is immoral. I could give other examples but you get the point.

I didn't say that. I said that I felt that way as an atheist.

Indeed.

No argument here. But I will provide a footnote:

I do press on people I meet. Whether at work or in the club, God will come up. Just last week, I was talking to a Jamaican coworker. He told me :

"I am a believer, but when I wake up in the morning, my **** is like this!" and he flexes his bicep muscle.
"I'm not going to call myself a Christian," he said. "I want to, John, but I just can't. I know what I NEED," he said.

I know, too. I wake up in the morning with the same thing. Because the penis is an organ that needs sustenance and blood, the body fills it a few times while we sleep. It is upkeep. But I just don't consider it to be a good reason to repeatedly cheat on your wife, as he does.

He then preceded to mock me-- teasingly-- for not cheating on my own wife, though I have not seen her for 3 months.

But then, he eventually identifies as a Christian later. Though he cheats on his wife, and proclaims it as a badge of honor among male coworkers.

What is he, then?

I'm not the judge. Maybe he is first in line. But I bet you he checks the "christian" box when filling out an application or survey. And a lot in his boat do. They check the box, but they are not in any way practicing. They aren't even trying. They've given up, and waved the white flag in the face of the flesh.

Are you saying that what other people think doesn't matter?

I genuinely do find it quite depressing that a significant number of our global society can't cope with life unless someone tells them about an all powerful creator deity and gives them rules to follow that ought to be the norm without the religious context, which presumably gives them a greater credibility?

Somehow, without believing in any gods, I cope easily with life, I live a moral life and everything is just fine. Now, if we could only remove the things that cause us the most problems, amongst which I'd count religion, maybe we could get on with progressing. Counties like Iran could let women back onto the university courses they just banned them all from and put their scientific community to a greater use than building nuclear weapons so that they can defend themselves against infidels.

Can you give some specific quotes? My impression is moreso that he commanded believers to love their neighbors as themselves, i.e. not just the people inside the church. I feel that the church was moreso established after Christ departed in the book of Acts, and throughout the following epistles.

But I could definitely be off here, just wanted to know some passages.

A cheating loudmouth who happens to be a Christian.

I dont really like the term practicing Christian. Its to much like True Christian or real Christian. I think they get kicked out of club to give the club a better shine. But this isn't the thread for that, fair enough overall i guess.

lolol... Why do people who don't give a crap what other people think tell other people that all the time?

Love it. Big fan of XKCD too.

Well yes, Christian beliefs lead to the Church.

But this talk of an extended family is just a community spirit.

You're not talking about specific doctrines that make this so. Or indeed, you're not talking about something unique to Christianity and necessarily absent from atheism.

I don't know. I clearly remember that when I was away from God, the one thing that I missed was the church. I think "community spirit" doesn't do it justice. The community spirit never slipped cash into my hand when I was in a tough spot. The community spirit never hooked me up with a job. The community spirit never hugged me at the door and called me late on a Saturday night to check up. The community spirit never showed up at the hospital late at night to pray for my child.

As for Christ and the church:

These types of things are EXACTLY what close nit communities do all over the world, whether they are centered around a christian church or not.

My mothers in law are part of an extended group of middle aged lesbians that create a pretty strong and vibrant community amongst themselves. All of these things are, more or less to a tee, how that community operates and that while they may meet and hang our for a range of other reasons, the backbone of unconditional support remains very present.

I wasn't born yesterday. I've lived in a lot of places. I can pretty confidently say that I'll take the church over "community spirit" any day. I've seen community spirit daily pass by the homeless and beggars, and even pass by a child in the road who just got run over by a car. I've seen community spirit assemble and gawk instead of helping. I've seen communities looting and rioting. And I can go on and on.

I'm sure there are places in the world where an approximation to the church exists. I don't doubt it. But it's not the norm around these parts, for sure.

Sure. Many church goers daily walk pass the homeless and the beggars and I am sure one can find examples where good Christians ignore a child who just got run over by a car and loot and riot as well.

Look you are trying to establish this sharp dichotomy between Christian church communities and all the other communities out there. But the examples of good things christian communities do and bad things other communities do can be said exactly - word for word - in the other case as well.

You had a bad community.